Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 21:10:08 +0300 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> Cc: Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>, "freebsd-virtualization@freebsd.org" <virtualization@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Using bhyve to develop and OS -- tips on how? Message-ID: <CAOgwaMvYk3n_5hxvXvbXZweT%2B4fETm9mN=CCq0ss=UicvDZ3Eg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAGBxaXmYnTr2THmOXkNGpLS_EFcPjyLST81PHWk8Oy1vgOVkTg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAGBxaXmJYkiAP99RvjMkyOUqz9=BzNOTjTiQgf7EppRw2KfmHQ@mail.gmail.com> <6B196318-29A4-479B-BC12-99EBBB69397E@iitbombay.org> <CAOgwaMvYfpshBtu0JcBS07T4q4Wr5m%2BwzjE3N3GBVSqZ0LmjXg@mail.gmail.com> <CAGBxaXmYnTr2THmOXkNGpLS_EFcPjyLST81PHWk8Oy1vgOVkTg@mail.gmail.com>
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--0000000000005f59f605d5b6f458 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 8:59 PM Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> wrote: > It was/is off topic to discuss the motivations on the design I have in > mind but after thinking for it over 10 years (and using FreeBSD to build = a > IaaS around bhyve) I have come to the conclusion that *NO* existing OS ca= n > meet the design requirements I have in mind. > > If you say this , it is understood that you are on the correct path . Please continue . My understanding was based on your "(mostly for fun)" phrase. I beg your pardon . With my best wishes for all , and additionally success in your efforts . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk > On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 11:13 AM Mehmet Erol Sanliturk < > m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 1:54 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: >> >>> You may be better off using qemu, at least initially as =E2=80=9Clegacy= =E2=80=9D booting >>> requires jumping through a few more hoops. Another suggestion is to che= ck >>> out wiki.osdev.org. There are a lot of useful resources on this site. >>> >>> On Jan 15, 2022, at 1:29 AM, Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> =EF=BB=BF >>> I want to develop a OS completely from scratch, i.e. starting with the >>> first instruction encountered after POST and everything above it (mostl= y >>> for fun). >>> >>> I want to use bhyve to do this any tips on how to get started (I have >>> found a few tutorials on how to do the asm part of a MBR but that's abo= ut >>> as far as I have gotten). >>> >>> -- >>> Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org >>> >>> >> >> Dear Aryeh , >> >> >> https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge >> >> From the beginning of above page : >> >> " >> Required Knowledge >> >> If you think you can skip this, it's probably just for you. >> >> Writing an OS is not a beginner's task. >> In fact, writing an OS is usually considered the most difficult >> programming task. >> You will need above-average programming skills before even considering >> a project like this. ..... >> " >> >> If you want to take such a difficult road to pursue , you may do the >> following : >> >> Study the bug reports , or GSOC projects , or projects to be handled by >> the >> FreeBSD Foundation >> ( or if you want more difficult problems , please search my mailing list >> messages >> to see "crazy" ideas , or please ask me "Do you have more crazy ideas ?" >> . >> You may be sure that I can find much "more crazy" ideas for you based on >> my goal to write >> a NEW operating system mainly based on FreeBSD , but from SCRATCH for >> ( not "Very" but ) "Large scale software stacks ( distributed , expert >> system based >> meaning learning , etc ... . ) ) >> >> >> If you confine your works on FreeBSD , if you want to be able to solve >> its current problems , >> this will mean that you are knowing how to write an OS because you are >> knowing >> the FreeBSD very well and are able to modify it toward a more mature >> state . >> At the end you will gain and FreeBSD will gain . >> >> >> A few suggestions : >> >> (1) Make a list of "panic" points . >> Eliminate as many of them as possible to protect the OS from >> crashing by determining >> whether the next application step will cause a panic or not ( check >> panic conditions >> before entering the next step ) and do not enter into it but return >> safely back by taking >> necessary actions other than "panic" . >> >> (2) At present many device behaviors are encoded into kernel related >> routines >> such as internal tables , constants , etc. . >> Design a device definition *.XML file format and move these >> internal definitions >> into these files with file names generated from device >> characteristics . >> For the detected existing devices and newly attached devices , >> generate the file >> name and search that file . If it exists , load it , else give a >> suitable error message . >> This allows to add new devices by the users by using device >> producing company >> supplied device definitions , or device definitions without >> requirement of >> modifications of kernel related sources . >> One more step would be to allow user supplied ( not "root" supplied >> ) device definitions >> and its associated device drivers loaded from userland . >> >> Such a system will be a very easy structure for the device >> producing companies >> because already they have device driver software , it is very easy >> to generate a >> device definition . The users will be able to use these devices >> easily by only >> attaching the device , storing its device driver and definition >> file into her / his space . >> >> This will attract the companies to be interested in FreeBSD , and >> produce more >> such drivers , definitions . >> This will increase number of possible FreeBSD users now repelled >> back due to difficulty of >> use of the devices or complete lack of their associated software >> parts , by solving >> their problems . >> >> >> It is possible to define many more improvement points . >> >> If present problems are handled , they will inspire many new improvement >> points >> which means you may continue to contribute to FreeBSD as much as possibl= e >> . >> >> This will supply what you want to do and its very pleasing happiness ( >> with respect to my >> understanding of your intentions ) . >> >> >> >> With my best wishes for all , >> >> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > --0000000000005f59f605d5b6f458 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"gmail_default" style=3D"fon= t-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div></div><br><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 16, 2022= at 8:59 PM Aryeh Friedman <<a href=3D"mailto:aryeh.friedman@gmail.com">= aryeh.friedman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail= _quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204= ,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr">It was/is off topic to discuss the= motivations on the design I have in mind but after thinking for it over 10= years (and using FreeBSD to build a IaaS around bhyve) I have come to the = conclusion that *NO* existing OS can meet the design requirements I have in= mind.<br></div><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div st= yle=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class=3D"gmail_defaul= t">If you say this , it is understood that you are on the correct path .</d= iv><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class=3D"gm= ail_default">Please continue .</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-s= erif;font-size:large" class=3D"gmail_default">My understanding was based on= your=C2=A0 "(mostly for fun)"=C2=A0 phrase.</div><div style=3D"f= ont-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class=3D"gmail_default">I beg= your pardon .</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:l= arge" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sa= ns-serif;font-size:large" class=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><div style=3D"f= ont-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class=3D"gmail_default"><div = style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div styl= e=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">With my best wishes for= all , and additionally success in your efforts .<br></div><div style=3D"fo= nt-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-f= amily:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Mehmet Erol Sanliturk<br></div><br= ><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" cla= ss=3D"gmail_default"><br></div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div= >=C2=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px = 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class= =3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 16, 2022= at 11:13 AM Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <<a href=3D"mailto:m.e.sanliturk@gmai= l.com" target=3D"_blank">m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><b= lockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-le= ft:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir= =3D"ltr"><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br><= /div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div= ><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div></d= iv><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On = Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 1:54 PM Bakul Shah <<a href=3D"mailto:bakul@iitbomb= ay.org" target=3D"_blank">bakul@iitbombay.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:= 1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"auto"><div dir=3D"= ltr"></div><div dir=3D"ltr">You may be better off using qemu, at least init= ially as =E2=80=9Clegacy=E2=80=9D booting requires jumping through a few mo= re hoops. Another suggestion is to check out <a href=3D"http://wiki.osdev.o= rg" target=3D"_blank">wiki.osdev.org</a>. There are a lot of useful resourc= es on this site.</div><div dir=3D"ltr"><br><blockquote type=3D"cite">On Jan= 15, 2022, at 1:29 AM, Aryeh Friedman <<a href=3D"mailto:aryeh.friedman@= gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">aryeh.friedman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br= ></blockquote></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">=EF=BB=BF<di= v dir=3D"ltr"><div>I want to develop a OS completely from scratch, i.e. sta= rting with the first instruction encountered after POST and everything abov= e it (mostly for fun).</div><div><br></div><div>I want to use bhyve to do t= his any tips on how to get started (I have found a few tutorials on how to = do the asm part of a MBR but that's about as far as I have gotten).<br>= </div><div><div><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir=3D"ltr">Aryeh M. Fried= man, Lead Developer, <a href=3D"http://www.PetiteCloud.org" target=3D"_blan= k">http://www.PetiteCloud.org</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></bloc= kquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div style=3D"= font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Dear Aryeh ,</div><br></div>= <div><br></div><div><a href=3D"https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge" t= arget=3D"_blank">https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge</a></div><div><b= r></div><div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">F= rom the beginning of above page :</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,san= s-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-se= rif;font-size:large">"</div>Required Knowledge<br><br>If you think you= can skip this, it's probably just for you.<br><br>Writing an OS is not= a beginner's task. <br>In fact, writing an OS is usually considered th= e most difficult programming task. <br>You will need above-average programm= ing skills before even considering <br>a project like this. <span class=3D"= gmail_default" style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> ...= ..</span><br><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">&= quot;</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br= ></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">If you = want to take such a difficult road to pursue , you may do the following :</= div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div>= <div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Study the bug = reports , or GSOC projects , or projects to be handled by the</div><div sty= le=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">FreeBSD Foundation <br= ></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">( or if= you want more difficult problems , please search my mailing list messages = <br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">to s= ee "crazy" ideas , or please ask me "Do you have more crazy = ideas ?" . <br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-= size:large">You may be sure that I can find much "more crazy" ide= as for you based on my goal to write</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,= sans-serif;font-size:large">a NEW operating system mainly based on FreeBSD = , but from SCRATCH for</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;fon= t-size:large">( not "Very" but ) "Large scale software stack= s (=C2=A0 distributed , expert system based</div><div style=3D"font-family:= tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">meaning learning=C2=A0 , etc ... . ) )</= div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div>= <div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div= style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">If you confine you= r works on FreeBSD , if you want to be able to solve its current problems ,= <br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">thi= s will mean that you are knowing how to write an OS because you are knowing= </div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">the Free= BSD very well and are able to modify it toward a more mature state .<br></d= iv><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">At the end = you will gain and FreeBSD will gain .<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:ta= homa,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma= ,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,san= s-serif;font-size:large">A few suggestions :</div><div style=3D"font-family= :tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tah= oma,sans-serif;font-size:large">(1) Make a list of "panic" points= .</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Eliminate as many of them as possible to protect the OS = from crashing by determining</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-ser= if;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 whether the next application s= tep will cause a panic or not ( check panic conditions</div><div style=3D"f= ont-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 befo= re entering the next step ) and do not enter into it but return safely back= by taking</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large= ">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 necessary actions other than "panic" .= </div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></di= v><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">(2) At prese= nt many device behaviors are encoded into kernel related routines <br></div= ><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 such as internal tables , constants , etc. .<br></div><div sty= le=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 Design a device definition=C2=A0 *.XML file format and move these inter= nal definitions <br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-= size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 into these files with file names gener= ated from device characteristics .</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sa= ns-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For the detected existin= g devices and newly attached devices , generate the file <br></div><div sty= le=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 name and search that file . If it exists , load it , else give a suitab= le error message .</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-si= ze:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This allows to add new devices by the us= ers by using device producing company <br></div><div style=3D"font-family:t= ahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 supplied=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0 device definitions=C2=A0 , or device definitions without requi= rement of</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"= >=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 modifications of kernel related sources=C2=A0 .</div><= div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 One more step would be to allow user supplied ( not "root&qu= ot; supplied ) device definitions</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,san= s-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 and its associated device= drivers loaded from userland .</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-= serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-seri= f;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Such a system will be a v= ery easy structure for the device producing companies</div><div style=3D"fo= nt-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0= because already they have device driver software , it is very easy to gene= rate a</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 device definition . The users will be able t= o use these devices easily by only</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sa= ns-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 attaching the devi= ce , storing its device driver and definition file into her / his space .</= div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div>= <div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This will attract the companies to be interested in Free= BSD , and produce more</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;fon= t-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 such drivers , definitions .</= div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This will increase number of possible FreeBSD users n= ow repelled back due to difficulty of</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma= ,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 use of the devi= ces or complete lack of their associated software parts , by solving</div><= div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 their problems .<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,= sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans= -serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-ser= if;font-size:large">It is possible to define many more improvement points .= </div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></di= v><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">If present p= roblems are handled , they will inspire many new improvement points <br></d= iv><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">which means= you may continue to contribute to FreeBSD as much as possible .</div><div = style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div styl= e=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">This will supply what y= ou want to do and its very pleasing happiness ( with respect to my</div><di= v style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">understanding of = your intentions ) .<br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;fo= nt-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-s= ize:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:= large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:larg= e">With my best wishes for all ,</div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans= -serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style=3D"font-family:tahoma,sans-ser= if;font-size:large">Mehmet Erol Sanliturk<br></div><div style=3D"font-famil= y:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"></div><br><br></div><div><br></div><di= v><br></div><div>=C2=A0</div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br clear=3D"all"><br>-- <br><div dir=3D"ltr"><div dir= =3D"ltr">Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, <a href=3D"http://www.PetiteClo= ud.org" target=3D"_blank">http://www.PetiteCloud.org</a><br></div></div>; </blockquote></div></div> --0000000000005f59f605d5b6f458--
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