Date: Sun, 16 Jan 2022 21:10:08 +0300 From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> To: Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> Cc: Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org>, "freebsd-virtualization@freebsd.org" <virtualization@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: Using bhyve to develop and OS -- tips on how? Message-ID: <CAOgwaMvYk3n_5hxvXvbXZweT%2B4fETm9mN=CCq0ss=UicvDZ3Eg@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <CAGBxaXmYnTr2THmOXkNGpLS_EFcPjyLST81PHWk8Oy1vgOVkTg@mail.gmail.com> References: <CAGBxaXmJYkiAP99RvjMkyOUqz9=BzNOTjTiQgf7EppRw2KfmHQ@mail.gmail.com> <6B196318-29A4-479B-BC12-99EBBB69397E@iitbombay.org> <CAOgwaMvYfpshBtu0JcBS07T4q4Wr5m%2BwzjE3N3GBVSqZ0LmjXg@mail.gmail.com> <CAGBxaXmYnTr2THmOXkNGpLS_EFcPjyLST81PHWk8Oy1vgOVkTg@mail.gmail.com>
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[-- Attachment #1 --] On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 8:59 PM Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> wrote: > It was/is off topic to discuss the motivations on the design I have in > mind but after thinking for it over 10 years (and using FreeBSD to build a > IaaS around bhyve) I have come to the conclusion that *NO* existing OS can > meet the design requirements I have in mind. > > If you say this , it is understood that you are on the correct path . Please continue . My understanding was based on your "(mostly for fun)" phrase. I beg your pardon . With my best wishes for all , and additionally success in your efforts . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk > On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 11:13 AM Mehmet Erol Sanliturk < > m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 1:54 PM Bakul Shah <bakul@iitbombay.org> wrote: >> >>> You may be better off using qemu, at least initially as “legacy” booting >>> requires jumping through a few more hoops. Another suggestion is to check >>> out wiki.osdev.org. There are a lot of useful resources on this site. >>> >>> On Jan 15, 2022, at 1:29 AM, Aryeh Friedman <aryeh.friedman@gmail.com> >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I want to develop a OS completely from scratch, i.e. starting with the >>> first instruction encountered after POST and everything above it (mostly >>> for fun). >>> >>> I want to use bhyve to do this any tips on how to get started (I have >>> found a few tutorials on how to do the asm part of a MBR but that's about >>> as far as I have gotten). >>> >>> -- >>> Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org >>> >>> >> >> Dear Aryeh , >> >> >> https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge >> >> From the beginning of above page : >> >> " >> Required Knowledge >> >> If you think you can skip this, it's probably just for you. >> >> Writing an OS is not a beginner's task. >> In fact, writing an OS is usually considered the most difficult >> programming task. >> You will need above-average programming skills before even considering >> a project like this. ..... >> " >> >> If you want to take such a difficult road to pursue , you may do the >> following : >> >> Study the bug reports , or GSOC projects , or projects to be handled by >> the >> FreeBSD Foundation >> ( or if you want more difficult problems , please search my mailing list >> messages >> to see "crazy" ideas , or please ask me "Do you have more crazy ideas ?" >> . >> You may be sure that I can find much "more crazy" ideas for you based on >> my goal to write >> a NEW operating system mainly based on FreeBSD , but from SCRATCH for >> ( not "Very" but ) "Large scale software stacks ( distributed , expert >> system based >> meaning learning , etc ... . ) ) >> >> >> If you confine your works on FreeBSD , if you want to be able to solve >> its current problems , >> this will mean that you are knowing how to write an OS because you are >> knowing >> the FreeBSD very well and are able to modify it toward a more mature >> state . >> At the end you will gain and FreeBSD will gain . >> >> >> A few suggestions : >> >> (1) Make a list of "panic" points . >> Eliminate as many of them as possible to protect the OS from >> crashing by determining >> whether the next application step will cause a panic or not ( check >> panic conditions >> before entering the next step ) and do not enter into it but return >> safely back by taking >> necessary actions other than "panic" . >> >> (2) At present many device behaviors are encoded into kernel related >> routines >> such as internal tables , constants , etc. . >> Design a device definition *.XML file format and move these >> internal definitions >> into these files with file names generated from device >> characteristics . >> For the detected existing devices and newly attached devices , >> generate the file >> name and search that file . If it exists , load it , else give a >> suitable error message . >> This allows to add new devices by the users by using device >> producing company >> supplied device definitions , or device definitions without >> requirement of >> modifications of kernel related sources . >> One more step would be to allow user supplied ( not "root" supplied >> ) device definitions >> and its associated device drivers loaded from userland . >> >> Such a system will be a very easy structure for the device >> producing companies >> because already they have device driver software , it is very easy >> to generate a >> device definition . The users will be able to use these devices >> easily by only >> attaching the device , storing its device driver and definition >> file into her / his space . >> >> This will attract the companies to be interested in FreeBSD , and >> produce more >> such drivers , definitions . >> This will increase number of possible FreeBSD users now repelled >> back due to difficulty of >> use of the devices or complete lack of their associated software >> parts , by solving >> their problems . >> >> >> It is possible to define many more improvement points . >> >> If present problems are handled , they will inspire many new improvement >> points >> which means you may continue to contribute to FreeBSD as much as possible >> . >> >> This will supply what you want to do and its very pleasing happiness ( >> with respect to my >> understanding of your intentions ) . >> >> >> >> With my best wishes for all , >> >> Mehmet Erol Sanliturk >> >> >> >> >> >> > > > -- > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > [-- Attachment #2 --] <div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 8:59 PM Aryeh Friedman <<a href="mailto:aryeh.friedman@gmail.com">aryeh.friedman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">It was/is off topic to discuss the motivations on the design I have in mind but after thinking for it over 10 years (and using FreeBSD to build a IaaS around bhyve) I have come to the conclusion that *NO* existing OS can meet the design requirements I have in mind.<br></div><br></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">If you say this , it is understood that you are on the correct path .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">Please continue .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">My understanding was based on your "(mostly for fun)" phrase.</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default">I beg your pardon .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">With my best wishes for all , and additionally success in your efforts .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Mehmet Erol Sanliturk<br></div><br><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large" class="gmail_default"><br></div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Jan 16, 2022 at 11:13 AM Mehmet Erol Sanliturk <<a href="mailto:m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com" target="_blank">m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sat, Jan 15, 2022 at 1:54 PM Bakul Shah <<a href="mailto:bakul@iitbombay.org" target="_blank">bakul@iitbombay.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">You may be better off using qemu, at least initially as “legacy” booting requires jumping through a few more hoops. Another suggestion is to check out <a href="http://wiki.osdev.org" target="_blank">wiki.osdev.org</a>. There are a lot of useful resources on this site.</div><div dir="ltr"><br><blockquote type="cite">On Jan 15, 2022, at 1:29 AM, Aryeh Friedman <<a href="mailto:aryeh.friedman@gmail.com" target="_blank">aryeh.friedman@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br><br></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div>I want to develop a OS completely from scratch, i.e. starting with the first instruction encountered after POST and everything above it (mostly for fun).</div><div><br></div><div>I want to use bhyve to do this any tips on how to get started (I have found a few tutorials on how to do the asm part of a MBR but that's about as far as I have gotten).<br></div><div><div><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, <a href="http://www.PetiteCloud.org" target="_blank">http://www.PetiteCloud.org</a></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Dear Aryeh ,</div><br></div><div><br></div><div><a href="https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge" target="_blank">https://wiki.osdev.org/Required_Knowledge</a></div><div><br></div><div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">From the beginning of above page :</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">"</div>Required Knowledge<br><br>If you think you can skip this, it's probably just for you.<br><br>Writing an OS is not a beginner's task. <br>In fact, writing an OS is usually considered the most difficult programming task. <br>You will need above-average programming skills before even considering <br>a project like this. <span class="gmail_default" style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> .....</span><br><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">"</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">If you want to take such a difficult road to pursue , you may do the following :</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Study the bug reports , or GSOC projects , or projects to be handled by the</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">FreeBSD Foundation <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">( or if you want more difficult problems , please search my mailing list messages <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">to see "crazy" ideas , or please ask me "Do you have more crazy ideas ?" . <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">You may be sure that I can find much "more crazy" ideas for you based on my goal to write</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">a NEW operating system mainly based on FreeBSD , but from SCRATCH for</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">( not "Very" but ) "Large scale software stacks ( distributed , expert system based</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">meaning learning , etc ... . ) )</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">If you confine your works on FreeBSD , if you want to be able to solve its current problems , <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">this will mean that you are knowing how to write an OS because you are knowing</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">the FreeBSD very well and are able to modify it toward a more mature state .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">At the end you will gain and FreeBSD will gain .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">A few suggestions :</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">(1) Make a list of "panic" points .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> Eliminate as many of them as possible to protect the OS from crashing by determining</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> whether the next application step will cause a panic or not ( check panic conditions</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> before entering the next step ) and do not enter into it but return safely back by taking</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> necessary actions other than "panic" .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">(2) At present many device behaviors are encoded into kernel related routines <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> such as internal tables , constants , etc. .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> Design a device definition *.XML file format and move these internal definitions <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> into these files with file names generated from device characteristics .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> For the detected existing devices and newly attached devices , generate the file <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> name and search that file . If it exists , load it , else give a suitable error message .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> This allows to add new devices by the users by using device producing company <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> supplied device definitions , or device definitions without requirement of</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> modifications of kernel related sources .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> One more step would be to allow user supplied ( not "root" supplied ) device definitions</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> and its associated device drivers loaded from userland .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> Such a system will be a very easy structure for the device producing companies</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> because already they have device driver software , it is very easy to generate a</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> device definition . The users will be able to use these devices easily by only</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> attaching the device , storing its device driver and definition file into her / his space .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> This will attract the companies to be interested in FreeBSD , and produce more</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> such drivers , definitions .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> This will increase number of possible FreeBSD users now repelled back due to difficulty of</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> use of the devices or complete lack of their associated software parts , by solving</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"> their problems .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">It is possible to define many more improvement points .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">If present problems are handled , they will inspire many new improvement points <br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">which means you may continue to contribute to FreeBSD as much as possible .</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">This will supply what you want to do and its very pleasing happiness ( with respect to my</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">understanding of your intentions ) .<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">With my best wishes for all ,</div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"><br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large">Mehmet Erol Sanliturk<br></div><div style="font-family:tahoma,sans-serif;font-size:large"></div><br><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div> </div></div></div> </blockquote></div><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr">Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, <a href="http://www.PetiteCloud.org" target="_blank">http://www.PetiteCloud.org</a><br></div></div>; </blockquote></div></div>
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