From owner-freebsd-arch@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Oct 17 14:10:17 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E707C824 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:10:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mail-wg0-x229.google.com (mail-wg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c00::229]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BC53C7D for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:10:17 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wg0-f41.google.com with SMTP id b13so1004044wgh.0 for ; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:10:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=Ox/IiWXXb0IMPaqKqrba50RiljeUYzPNYl2H6cjqACU=; b=mVBlI/DmjxL7/5+2rIOdx2t0/okTTbCawnaH6tsFnvsaK1J8Ilk94stBBx5V+s/5Rn 14WNLGaU1BPsUTnMboPsqXmZ7mtL2l5dUvyLatDRiqMBSKwQyS42UDlpkNdAcokw81T4 ieReRtV8HNmglbwz+rgHvieeb33WA79JNv753pwd/ECeyCN2deF8HKirEw3wUm5ihEOk swRkdBb/Jx/GcGWY2pSIUa3gDNYvHSF61Bh+ymHAPc5irQKsthyWUD2CXthdu+fvTqu4 JRE6vt8vkQPo+aY1WRYBSVXoLeXvDMeYmgaMVqjh7d/Ysm1Z4fAcQYNFOGPzo3creTAz 8rug== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.180.100.106 with SMTP id ex10mr29435183wib.63.1413555015602; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:10:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.141.6 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Oct 2014 07:10:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <315B4DC5-0E04-4F6B-BBB0-477D049025BF@bsdimp.com> Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 10:10:15 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: PIE/PIC support on base From: Shawn Webb To: Warner Losh , David Carlier Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.18-1 Cc: PaX Team , FreeBSD Arch X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18-1 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Oct 2014 14:10:18 -0000 On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 10:05 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > [[cc trimmed ]] > > On Oct 17, 2014, at 7:46 AM, Shawn Webb wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 9:41 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Oct 17, 2014, at 2:05 AM, Shawn Webb wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 3:53 AM, Jeremie Le Hen > wrote: > > > > > >> On Fri, Oct 17, 2014 at 12:15 AM, Shawn Webb > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 5:59 PM, Jeremie Le Hen > wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> On Thu, Oct 16, 2014 at 8:21 PM, David Carlier > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> I chose the "atomic" approach, at the moment very few binaries ar= e > > >>>>> concerned at the moment. So I applied INCLUDE_PIC_ARCHIVE in the > > >> needed > > >>>>> libraries plus created WITH_PIE which add fPIE/fpie -pie flags > only if > > >>>>> you > > >>>>> include (which include ...) > otherwise > > >>>>> other > > >>>>> binaries include as usual hence does not apply. Loo= k > > >>>>> reasonable approach ? > > >>>> > > >>>> I think I understand what you mean. But I think PIE is commonplac= e > > >>>> nowadays and I don't understand what you win by not enabling it fo= r > > >>>> the whole system. Is it a performance concern? Is it to preserve > > >>>> conservative minds from to much change? :) > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Looping in Kostik, Bryan Drewery, the PaX team, Hunger, and Sean > Bruno. > > >>> > > >>> On i386, there is a performance cost due to not having an extra > register > > >>> available for the relocation work that has to happen. PIE doesn't > carry > > >> much > > >>> of a performance penalty on amd64, though it still does carry some = on > > >> first > > >>> resolution of functions (due to the extra relocation step the RTLD > has to > > >>> worry about). On amd64, after symbol resolution has taken place, > there > > >> is no > > >>> further performance penalty due to amd64 having an extra register t= o > use > > >> for > > >>> PIE/PIC. I'm unsure what, if any, performance penalty PIE carries o= n > ARM, > > >>> AArch64, and sparc64. > > >>> > > >>> Certain folk would prefer to see PIE enabled only in certain > > >> applications. > > >>> /bin/ls can't really make much use of PIE. But sshd can. I personal= ly > > >> would > > >>> like to see all of base's applications compiled as PIEs, but that's= a > > >> long > > >>> ways off. It took OpenBSD several years to accomplish that. Having > > >> certain > > >>> high-visibility applications (like sshd, inetd, etc) is a great > start. > > >>> Providing a framework for application developers to opt their > application > > >>> into PIE is another great start. > > >>> > > >>> Those are my two cents. > > >> > > >> OK. As long as i386 is still an important architecture, it can make > > >> sense to enable this on a per-binary basis if we don't want to have = a > > >> discrepancy between archs. Also I buy your argument on /bin/ls but I > > >> was challenging to enable for the whole system because I wonder if > > >> there aren't some unexpected attack surfaces, besides the obvious on= es > > >> (servers). > > >> > > >> Do you know what took so much time to OpenBSD? > > > > > > > > > In a private conversation with Theo, I realized that my recollection > of the > > > time it took OpenBSD to compile all of base as PIEs was wrong. Quotin= g > him: > > > > > > "It took 5 people approximately 3 months to debug it, activate it, an= d > > > start shipping it the next release. That was on amd64, for all > > > dynamically linked binaries, except one (a gcc bug took some time to > > > find). The next architectures followed about 1 or 2 per 6-month > > > release." > > > > > > Given that only one person has worked on this in the past (me) and no= w > the > > > task has been delegated to another (David Carlier), I think we're doi= ng > > > okay on our end. There's a lot of moving parts, and neither of us ful= ly > > > understand all of them completely. We're working on it in HardenedBSD= , > in > > > the hardened/current/pie branch. > > > > > > I'm thinking we might try for a WITH_PIE knob (and *not* use USE_PIE) > and > > > have certain high-profile applications opt-in to PIE until we work ou= t > all > > > the details for everything en masse. Baptiste did bring up a good poi= nt > > > with INTERNALLIB and I'm unsure of how we should handle that. > > > > WITH_PIE or WITHOUT_PIE controls, on a global basis, via the MK_PIE > > variable, whether or not the user wants to turn on this feature for tho= se > > program that can do PIE. Designating which programs do, or don=E2=80=99= t, > > use PIE simply must be done with a different variable. I posted a bit o= f > a > > rant about the current state of things that suggested a couple of > > alternatives as well as giving some history as to why some options > > aren=E2=80=99t to be used and the history behind some of my reactions. = :) > > > > For this reason, I think WITH_PIE, as I understand your proposal, > > likely isn=E2=80=99t a good fit with other WITH_xxx variables used in t= he src > > tree today. > > > > Gotcha. To be honest, I found your email a tad bit confusing. Are you > suggesting we create an ENABLE_feature framework? Or are you suggesting w= e > have a USE_PIE flag? Or are you suggesting something different entirely > (and if you are, what?)? > > I=E2=80=99m saying we don=E2=80=99t have a good framework at the moment t= o do this. We > have several bad ones that all have their pitfalls. This is one reason I > had > the fast reaction to NO_PIE, then a minute later said =E2=80=9Cgo ahead a= nd use > it and I=E2=80=99ll fix it.=E2=80=9D I=E2=80=99m still cool with that pos= ition, btw. > > As for a name, that can be debated a lot, but I=E2=80=99d like to see so= mething > new, easy to use and unambiguous. If you are looking for a suggestion > for that name, let=E2=80=99s go with WANTS_PIE. Only Makefiles can set it= . > > WANTS_PIE undefined means do the default behavior as defined by the > current MK_PIE setting and perhaps system policy. =E2=80=9CGo with this f= low." > > WANTS_PIE=3Dyes means that if MK_PIE is =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D, then do PI= E things for > this thing we=E2=80=99re building. If MK_PIE is =E2=80=9Cno=E2=80=9D, tho= ugh PIE is disabled for > everything. > > WANTS_PIE=3Dno means that if MK_PIE is =E2=80=9Cyes=E2=80=9D, then disabl= e doing PIE > things for this component. If MK_PIE is no, it is also disabled. > > This could also be extended to NEEDS_foo, which says =E2=80=9CI need foo = to > build, and if MK_foo is set to no, don=E2=80=99t build me.=E2=80=9D I don= =E2=80=99t think anything > that you are doing falls into this category though. > > WANTS/NEEDS also avoids the historical use of USE in the ports tree > possibly creating confusion. > > If you go with WANTS_PIE, then you wouldn=E2=80=99t need bad.*.pie.mk. > > Comments? I like that idea. I think we need buy off from Kostik. David, what are your thoughts? Thanks, Shawn