Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2011 09:59:11 +0100 (BST) From: Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.org> To: Xin LI <delphij@gmail.com> Cc: vadim_nuclight@mail.ru, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Subject: Debian/kFreeBSD (was: Re: FreeBSD problems and preliminary ways to solve) Message-ID: <alpine.BSF.2.00.1108260948520.48200@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <CAGMYy3uXOZ3ObKdnqRgdgda7HGCf=ZJaziz2WkCmnpBu8npXQw@mail.gmail.com> References: <1313785806.56747.YahooMailClassic@web113503.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <175270279.98941.1313793515391.JavaMail.root@erie.cs.uoguelph.ca> <slrnj5aurh.7nm.vadim_nuclight@kernblitz.nuclight.avtf.net> <CAGMYy3uXOZ3ObKdnqRgdgda7HGCf=ZJaziz2WkCmnpBu8npXQw@mail.gmail.com>
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On Thu, 25 Aug 2011, Xin LI wrote:
>>> It seems to me that FreeBSD should do what it can to support this effort.
>>> Why? Well, I suspect a lot of why organizations
>>
>> No. FreeBSD has limited resources. We need to:
>>
>> a) fix our own problems
>> b) develop our own unique features (see my message to Robert Watson)
>>
>> And supporting Debian will mean wasting resources which could be spent to
>> these. This will effectively kill FreeBSD as a separate entity if our
>> problems will stay unfixed and get worse due to this.
>>
>> Leave this work to Debian: they already have a wide community and many
>> resources. Any Linux distro has more resources than BSD because they just
>> only pack someone's software, and we have to also actually *develop* those
>> software (most of all, kernel and libc).
>
> I consider Debian GNU/kFreeBSD as a platform where we can see what the
> actual {performance,functionality} difference between our code and GNU ones,
> which is valuable. Supporting their effort might be time consuming and
> maybe not our priority, but it's good not to make their work harder because
> more importantly, their existence gives us more exposure and more eyes on
> our codebase as well.
Debian GNU/kFreeBSD offers a number of interesting prospects:
(1) Side-by-side comparison between FreeBSD and Linux kernels + features using
a mature and complete userspace
(2) Allow Debian users easy access to features hard to get with a stock Linux
kernel: pf, 802.11 stack, Netgraph, DTrace, ZFS, Capsicum, etc.
(3) Allow easier hosting of mature Linux environments on top of hybrid
FreeBSD/Linux hosting: provide Linux jails on FreeBSD ISPs but with the
many benefits of using the native ABI.
(4) Potential stepping stone on the path from Linux to FreeBSD (or, to be
fair, vice versa!).
(5) Increase exposure of FreeBSD kernel features and approaches in the broder
OS community.
(6) Provide another motivation for third-party application developers to
consider FreeBSD-specific kernel features viable for use. For example, if
Debian/kFreeBSD makes developing Capsicum-aware applications on a
Linux-like platform easy, then FreeBSD ports wins as well.
(7) Provide an additional set of interested hands when it comes to improving
the clarity of definition and robustness of our system call ABI. This is
something we've been increasing our focus on over time, and especially if
the Debian folk track our development HEAD, they can provide us much
earlier feedback either when we mess up, or when there's something we can
do to make things easier for them (and therefore, likely, us in the
future).
(8) Use of the Debian "brand" to promote FreeBSD as a vibrant and interesting
thing for the broader community of Linux users.
I think we should be supporting the Debian/kFreeBSD folks in their effort --
hence inviting them to join our developer summits, accepting patches, etc.
As both the FreeBSD and the Debian communities pride themselves in being a bit
persnickety about the spelling and details, there will inevitably be some
disagreements about approach. However, we may find that we can make their
lives a lot easier by making relatively small changes to our kernel, and that
they have extremely useful feedback to bring us on our kernel implementation.
Robert
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