From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Mar 25 15:17:43 2000 Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from tantalum.btinternet.com (tantalum.btinternet.com [194.73.73.80]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23ECB37B742 for ; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 15:17:39 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org) Received: from [62.6.97.205] (helo=parish.my.domain) by tantalum.btinternet.com with esmtp (Exim 2.05 #1) id 12YzgT-0004QA-00; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:09:33 +0000 Received: (from mark@localhost) by parish.my.domain (8.9.3/8.9.3) id XAA01274; Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:16:57 GMT (envelope-from mark) Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2000 23:16:56 +0000 From: Mark Ovens To: Jay Nelson Cc: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Subject: Guns and freedom [Was: Re: On "intelligent people" and "dangers to BSD"] Message-ID: <20000325231656.E234@parish> References: <20000325104927.B234@parish> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii X-Mailer: Mutt 1.0.1i In-Reply-To: ; from noslenj@swbell.net on Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 04:21:57PM -0600 Organization: Total lack of Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 04:21:57PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > On Sat, 25 Mar 2000, Mark Ovens wrote: > > >On Fri, Mar 24, 2000 at 06:07:47PM -0600, Jay Nelson wrote: > >> On Fri, 24 Mar 2000, Paul Richards wrote: > >> > >> >Rahul Siddharthan wrote: > >> >> > >> >> > > In one word: tyranny. > >> >> > > >> [snip] > >> > >> >Ok, not the best example. I guess the handguns law is a better one since > >> >it's now illegal to have a handgun in the UK even if you bought it > >> >before the law changed. > >> > > >> >Everyone here who had one was required to hand them in when the law came > >> >in to effect. > >> > >> I hope they weren't foolish enough to actually hand them in. > >> > > > >Most of them did (there was a compensation scheme). The big difference > >of course is that over here most people realize that there is no real > >justification for *any* civilian, except farmers, to own firearms (we > >don't have grizzlies and rattlesnakes, so walking in the hills is > >safe). > > By extension, then, there is no justification for any civilian to have > encryption technology or open source since both can be used to cause > far more harm than a hand gun. Hmm, I don't think "Go ahead, punk, make my day" would have had quite the same impact if Clint had shoved a piece of paper with his PGP key written on it in the guy's face instead of a .357 Magnum :-P Seriously though, I understand what you are getting at but it isn't really a fair comparison. A gun has a very immediate and terminal effect. > Unless I misread history, the hills of > England weren't safe in 1940. England was also disarmed then. Why > would you risk repeating the exercise? Once you start giving up > freedom, when do you stop? > What freedom? I would say that the freedom to go about your business without the fear of being attacked, raped, stabbed, shot etc. transcends any freedom to own/carry a gun (or any weapon for that matter. I have a 13-year old daughter and her freedom is severely curtailed (by me and my wife) compared to the freedom we had at that age (early '70s). OK, so this isn't specifically because of guns, but because of a general increase in lawlessness which threatens her safety. Even so, she has had her freedom taken away. A popular TV programme over here is "Police, Camera, Action" which comprises footage from the video cameras used in police cars and helicopters and includes clips from many countries including the US. Whilst a lot of it is amusing and entertaining some of it is decidedly scary. One clip from an American police car showed the officer pulling over a car full of kids. He walked to the driver's door and the driver just shot him with a handgun. The officer was unhurt, apart from some heavy bruising, thanks to his bullet-proof vest. Although it didn't specify in the programme it is perfectly possible that the kid may have owned the gun legitimately. How can anyone justify the "freedom" to own firearms when that sort of thing happens? Do you own a gun? If so, why do you own it? Have you ever used it in anger? Americans and Britons will probably, for the most part, never agree on the subject of firearms as we grew up in countries whose gun laws are at opposite extremes. > Since the subject of this thread is: 'On "intelligent people" and > "dangers...', does anyone see a connection with this and the > hand-wringing over what BSD, Inc. may do? > Subject line changed :) > -- Jay > > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message -- Seminars, n.: From "semi" and "arse", hence, any half-assed discussion. ________________________________________________________________ FreeBSD - The Power To Serve http://www.freebsd.org My Webpage http://ukug.uk.freebsd.org/~mark/ mailto:mark@ukug.uk.freebsd.org http://www.radan.com To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message