From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Jan 17 23:08:58 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B852A1065670 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:08:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from Devin.Teske@fisglobal.com) Received: from mx1.fisglobal.com (mx1.fisglobal.com [199.200.24.190]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC808FC16 for ; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:08:58 +0000 (UTC) Received: from pps.filterd (ltcfislmsgpa02 [127.0.0.1]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with SMTP id q0HN6s6U023189; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:08:53 -0600 Received: from smtp.fisglobal.com ([10.132.206.15]) by ltcfislmsgpa02.fnfis.com with ESMTP id 12djc0g0a8-2 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:08:53 -0600 Received: from dtwin (10.14.152.15) by smtp.fisglobal.com (10.132.206.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.1.323.3; Tue, 17 Jan 2012 17:08:52 -0600 From: Devin Teske To: "'Garrett Cooper'" , References: <1326756727.23485.10.camel@Arawn> In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 15:09:16 -0800 Message-ID: <03a901ccd56d$09eb2a20$1dc17e60$@fisglobal.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 14.0 Thread-Index: AQFTuuDxM2D0gQ4oJ7TghrFqaFf0jQJO0ujSAnKeI/iW3VGeEA== Content-Language: en-us X-Originating-IP: [10.14.152.15] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:5.5.7110, 1.0.211, 0.0.0000 definitions=2012-01-17_08:2012-01-17, 2012-01-17, 1970-01-01 signatures=0 Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: RE: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Jan 2012 23:08:58 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd- > hackers@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Garrett Cooper > Sent: Monday, January 16, 2012 4:07 PM > To: WBentley@futurecis.com > Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: FreeBSD has serious problems with focus, longevity, and lifecycle > > On Mon, Jan 16, 2012 at 3:32 PM, William Bentley > wrote: > > I also echo John's sentiments here. Very excellent points made here. > > Thank you for voicing your opinion. I was beginning to think I was the > > only one who felt this way. > > > > I also have several FreeBSD installations spread across different > > development/production systems and it is not feasible to always > > upgrade to the latest and greatest. Part of why FreeBSD is difficult > > to adopt into more of the commercial/government sectors is because of > > this fast paced release cycle and most of the important patches/fixes > > are not backported far enough. This is why most of my customers decide > > to use Solaris or RedHat and not FreeBSD. (Not looking to start a > > flame war about the OS choice/etc just pointing out the Release cycle > > model). I would love to push FreeBSD harder but it is becoming > > increasingly difficult as of late. > > > > We seem to have lost our way around the release of FreeBSD 7. I am all > > in favor of new features but not at the risk of stability and proper > > life cycle management. > > > > Are me and John the only people that feel this way or are we among the > > minority? > > You aren't. There are other people like Devin Teske's group that feel the same > (they're upgrading from 4.x to 8.2! Brave man.. and godspeed to him), Thanks! Actually, we're jumping from 4.11 to 8.1 (not 8.2 -- reason as follows). A lot of the problems we're having in 8.1 still exist in 8.2 (but will go-away in 8.3, according to what we're seeing already-committed to RELENG_8 tag beyond the RELENG_8_2_0_RELEASE tag -- that is, if 8.3 ever gets produced!). Therefore, we've seen no need to push 8.2 (in-fact, we've internally black-listed it because it doesn't fix anything we care about). So far, we've made over 10 patches to FreeBSD-8.1, and not a one of them would have been needed for 8.3, but all of them would still be needed for 8.2. I might add that we're doing an in-place binary migration from 4.11 to 8.1 using a very sophisticated sh(1) script named "host_rebuild" which we'll be releasing later this year. It allows binary migration both forwards, backwards, and even stationary (re-installing the same OS, to either migrate architecture or simply rebuild the OS). > along with > some development organizations that depend on long release cycles (IronPort, > Isilon, etc). I brought this up in last weekend's BAFUG meeting... We're _very_ interested in replicating the long-lifecycle of the 4-series with a newer series. But which one? Right now, we're jumping to the 8-series, but after seeing that one of the major focal points for 9 is McKusick's SU+J (SoftUpdates Journaling -- tunefs -j enable), I'm ready to say that the 9-series should instead be the "chosen outlier" when it comes to picking one single release to have an ultra-wide lifecycle. The 9-series represents the first release to integrate a journaled filesystem by-default into the system (aka boot) filesystem(s). We were pleasantly surprised to see that the default installer enabled SU+J by-default when choosing "guided" and "auto" for disk partitioning. NOTE: We hated gjournal -- too clunky as a "bolt-on" solution. SU+J is a breath of fresh-air as it's truly integrated into the filesystem and recognized at the base FreeBSD level. -- Devin > That being said. More people, more likelihood to succeed with what you need, > like julian@ suggests. I like long release cycles too for stuff that I find critical and > "in production", like my router. My fileserver is a slightly different story, but I just > got off the CURRENT bandwagon off on to the 9-STABLE bandwagon :). > Cheers, > -Garrett > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" _____________ The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you.