Date: Wed, 17 Jun 1998 15:12:38 +1000 From: Sue Blake <sue@welearn.com.au> To: higginsj@iname.com Cc: Nik Clayton <nik@nothing-going-on.demon.co.uk>, Tim Gerchmez <fewtch@serv.net>, pirat@prime.oaep.go.th, freebsd-newbies@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Where to get Windows Internet stuff/ More on Windows & BSD Message-ID: <19980617151238.47765@welearn.com.au> In-Reply-To: <Pine.BSF.3.96.980616213744.384A-100000@localhost>; from James on Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:49:44PM -0400 References: <19980617100214.10135@welearn.com.au> <Pine.BSF.3.96.980616213744.384A-100000@localhost>
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On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 09:49:44PM -0400, James wrote: > > > On Wed, 17 Jun 1998, Sue Blake wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 07:31:52PM +0100, Nik Clayton wrote: > > > On Tue, Jun 16, 1998 at 01:25:38PM +1000, Sue Blake wrote: > > > > Lest there be any doubt, this is clearly spelled out > > 1. on the list charters page > > 2. in the info majordomo sends upon joining > > 3. http://www.freebsd.org/newbies.html > > 4. http://www.welearn.com.au/freebsd/newbies > > 5. in the weekly posting to this list each Friday or Saturday > > > > In the past, misinformation has been spread among newbies and others have > > used it as ammunition to say that newbies shouldn't be allowed to get > > together because they'll spread misinformation making more work for the > > freebsd-questions volunteers. As a group we have quite a reputation to > > live down. So far I think we have shown our worth by just being > > ourselves. > > That was the topic of the "Blind-leading-blind" discussion held on -chat > when this list was in its early phases of birth. I personally think that > this list has grown pretty well since that time and I am glad to see it. > > If I am not mistaken that growth has been partially due to some pushing > by Sue and a bigger part due to the people here. You have my congrats. :) > > > > I think that some of the "why" discussions when it comes to disk partioning > > > (as opposed to the "how" discussions of how you run disklabel and others) > > > might be germane to this list. IMHO of course, and I'll cheerfully be told > > > I'm wrong :-) > > > > That kind of "why" discussion fits in here well. It meets the critereon > > of being something that is not done on another list. Our main activity > > seems to be learning, rather than asking and telling how to do things. > > Your explanations of various topics in the past have been much > > appreciated. > > This is something fundamental. The focus of the other lists are more of a > "how". The questions get posed and it is left as an excercise to the > reader to figure out the details of the "why". The person that answered > just takes forgranted that the person asks knows "why". This is *NOT* > a universal statement, but at the least a moderately valid observation. > > I think that aspect something stands to really separate this group from > the rest of the "tech support" groups. Err, but this one is specifically *not* a "tech support" group. There was a suggestion to start a support group for newbies, in addition to this social discussion group, but so far we have not found enough volunteer supporters of sufficient calibre and commitment to maintain it. Take another look at the charter. Why is it that newbies find it so easy to understand where to draw the line and non-newbies, who have other places to go, keep telling us that our group should be what it's not? Why are newbies so interested in what they can do, what they can share, what they can contribute back to the community, but others keep seeing us solely as dependent people having nothing to offer but gratitude for being saved? We've pulled together our own list of resources, set up web sites and IRC channels, written and reviewed documentation, made new newbies feel welcome among equals, kept largely out of everyone's hair, and given ourselves a place we can feel free to slag vi or confess to using microsoft without feeling like we're on show. We've given valuable advice from a newbies perspective on other projects such as documentation. From time to time we've been observed, studied, forgotten, helped, admonished, praised, guided, called lazy and braindead, and patted on our little backs. We just get on with it. Our list is what it is. Maybe one day that will change, but not in a big hurry, and any change will be brought about by what newbies want, not what we're told to want. There are thirty other lists where we're happy to be told what we want every day. We go there when we want help. This one is ours, to be among peers, to do things, not have things done to us. > The chance to slow down and help > someone new figure out what is going on rather than giving them a quick > fix and push them along the way. > > I am still "fresh", I would not quite call myself a newbie anymore, and I > am willing to give a why to everything I can. That is also a place for > the vets who are lurking in the background to make corrections for the > "not-quite-correct-but-almost-there" comments. : ) Hey, what a great idea! In a few months I won't be a newbie any more but I won't be good enough to advise anyone on my own, certainly not to compete with those in freebsd-questions. So I can hang around here and practise on the newbies, can't hurt much, they're only newbies... try stuff out, rely on a few "vets" to be here to gently correct any instructions that I give that are wrong. A kind of training ground for wannabees to practise on newbies, where any knowledge looks like a lot. OK, that's not what _you_ are proposing, but careful, it's the idea that it could generate. Read the five documents listed above one more time. The list charter is the bottom line. It's quite simple to understand, if you can accept the list for what it is and newbies for what they are. We newbies come here to share and contribute with each other. We discuss FreeBSD because we're interested in it. Others can discuss with us and if they know a bit more, that's great. But it's not the same as support, nor do we have the FreeBSD support team waiting here to correct errors. Look, we all want to help, more than we want to be helped. Especially newbies. Learn _one_ unix command or do _one_ successful installation and you want to teach it to the world. Newbies want to do that more than anyone else! If we see someone who doesn't know something we know, we're dying to show them, but we refrain from showing each other how to do things because of the risks involved and the unwanted burden of having "support" in more than one list. The list charter spells that out. If we newbies are disciplined enough to do our support in the proper place, why give others the thrill of doing it here when we can't? And if others give us technical support here in violation of the list charter, than damn it, we'll do the same. My view is just the view of one newbie (on a bad day). There are a lot of other newbies here who might have different views, and that's a good thing. Personally, in this particular forum I would respect the view of a newbie more than the voice of experience. Newbies generally don't express their views as convincingly and confidently as those with more experience, even when it's their own business. I wish that they would. Remember there's only three sources of authority in here. One is the list charter, one is the postmaster who we seldom hear from, and the third is the combined voices of the newbies. I think it's about time you other newbies felt free to use your authority instead of giving it away by remaining silent. -- Regards, -*Sue*- To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-newbies" in the body of the message
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