From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Thu Oct 4 18:24:57 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9D7E10B5F06 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:24:57 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Received: from outbound1a.eu.mailhop.org (outbound1a.eu.mailhop.org [52.58.109.202]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDE1D7DC25 for ; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 18:24:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) X-MHO-RoutePath: aGlwcGll X-MHO-User: 833b1f58-c800-11e8-af31-edadc92cdc1a X-Report-Abuse-To: https://support.duocircle.com/support/solutions/articles/5000540958-duocircle-standard-smtp-abuse-information X-Originating-IP: 67.177.211.60 X-Mail-Handler: DuoCircle Outbound SMTP Received: from ilsoft.org (unknown [67.177.211.60]) by outbound1.eu.mailhop.org (Halon) with ESMTPSA id 833b1f58-c800-11e8-af31-edadc92cdc1a; Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:08:41 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rev (rev [172.22.42.240]) by ilsoft.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id w94I8ZNZ000419; Thu, 4 Oct 2018 12:08:35 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from ian@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <1538676515.14264.15.camel@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: Ian Lepore To: Warner Losh Cc: FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 12:08:35 -0600 In-Reply-To: References: <20181003210516.GA71565@spindle.one-eyed-alien.net> <55a44e73-60ab-e386-360a-b0a0198a0e71@zyxst.net> <8878cac1-d5d2-4224-6aa5-85516db23c14@sorbs.net> <1538673997.14264.9.camel@freebsd.org> <1538675265.14264.12.camel@freebsd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" X-Mailer: Evolution 3.18.5.1 FreeBSD GNOME Team Port Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2018 18:24:57 -0000 On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:58 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:47 AM Ian Lepore wrote: > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 11:38 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 11:26 AM Ian Lepore > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, 2018-10-04 at 10:21 -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Oct 4, 2018 at 10:15 AM Michelle Sullivan > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tech-lists wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm astonished you're considering removing rl given how > > > > > > > common > > it is. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I'll second that comment - though no disrespect to > > > > > > Brooks.  Brooks > > as > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > far as I can see is just the messenger. > > > > > > > > > > > Absent good data, one has to make one's best guesses. I > > > > > guessed wrong > > > > here > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > in my comments to Brooks about which ones were must keeps. I > > > > > knew it > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > popular back in the day (~2000), but had thought it's > > > > > popularity had > > > > waned > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > much more than it apparently has. I last deployed systems > > > > > with rl in > > them > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > around 2007, and at the time it was trailing edge gear (the > > > > > SBCs we > > used > > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Timing Solutions tended to use popular, but ~5-year-old > > > > > technology > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > that market segment wanted longevity of spare > > > > > availability...). > > > > > > > > > > Warner > > > > 11 years later, we (Timing Solutions, now a division of > > > > Microchip) are > > > > still using SBCs with rl(4) hardware and still shipping > > > > software > > > > updates with that driver built into the kernel. We build > > > > systems with a > > > > lifespan in the field of 20 years or more, and the stability > > > > and > > > > compatibility across OS upgrades over that kind of span is a > > > > BIG reason > > > > to use freebsd rather than linux for such things. > > > > > > > OK. I'd have thought those SBCs would have gone out of production > > > years > > > ago.... It's a good datapoint to know that there's multiple users > > > of > > > FreeBSD using these parts in products that are still shipping. > > > That's a > > > clear and compelling benefit to the project that offsets the > > > efforts that > > > it's taken them to keep things current with rl. > > > > > > In this case, though, rl is off the list, so that hardware should > > > still > > be > > > > > > good. The only other SBC I was aware of at Timing Solutions was > > > one that > > > had an 'ed' chip on it (an ISA realtek part IIRC) that was used > > > in around > > > 2001, but in a 'one off' custom setup that I don't think will > > > ever be > > > upgraded.... But I have to ask since I know how things worked > > > during my > > > time there and systems that 'would never be upgraded' often times > > > were > > > later... > > > > > > I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, wb, > > > sn, smc, > > > sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > > thread, and > > > which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age today. > > > > > > Warner > > I checked all our various kernel configs, and the only one on the > > list > > we still use appears to be rl. > > > > One driver I was surprised to see was not on the list was vte. So > > I'll > > just preemptively mention that we do use that one too. > > > I'll assume that you've deployed more than 5 of these systems and > that you > may someday upgrade them as well?  Which of the Vortex86 processors > are you > using, if you can answer that... > > Warner It's a DM&P Vortex86DX on a PCA-6743 board, which you can still buy. 32-bit only, BTW, which is why I hate hearing recent mumblings about discarding 32-bit x86 support in freebsd. -- Ian