From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Oct 21 22:29:25 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51041A8; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 22:29:25 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from adrian.chadd@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qa0-x231.google.com (mail-qa0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c00::231]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 819F02B3E; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 22:29:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-qa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id i13so2872695qae.15 for ; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:29:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=9S7zz1ir/Ac5ofoWkNKhp1JiqRaN6i/OGX+W/5GBiS4=; b=uA6daoWD7ANOwxMsG6Z7KiBOu0YJdLNUYEfQLFvFNhStrdW8Pks4CAOLI3xUqZbzJ+ X6DWw0Rljud2LWqso501lrogzOexQ9TPX6Arf3xe/JRpkXHH4KciPZFbvMbJHlX7nQa6 Pkc+qW/en6HKmgXT+y84paB839KQJr3U/8JtN2VWNxJxO2503FdigAaNL2NesuNwMlr5 C4LcKbBxyxL6X7VPnWT3VrmhfxUX4md9NOpM3ui/IlBiNkNQvNMdB37kO5sx8Jkmt7F0 4pAwBivhJlbdgy2QdkMHoKsKE9Wm5DdRU1SX8h2u1WAQ7Gu+j2XrQ2QCTE1vsLk75UtJ hq9Q== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.224.167.206 with SMTP id r14mr26172289qay.4.1382394564591; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Sender: adrian.chadd@gmail.com Received: by 10.224.207.66 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:29:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201310212146.r9LLkqZ1044966@fire.js.berklix.net> References: <5265878B.1050809@yandex.ru> <201310212146.r9LLkqZ1044966@fire.js.berklix.net> Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 15:29:24 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ymI1TcBFoob0aaA4zPlKqcFQzwg Message-ID: Subject: Re: [rfc] removing the NDISulator From: Adrian Chadd To: "Julian H. Stacey" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.14 Cc: "Andrey V. Elsukov" , "freebsd-wireless@freebsd.org" , freebsd-current X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Oct 2013 22:29:25 -0000 The NDISulator is a crutch from a time when there wasn't _any_ real alternative. There are plenty of alternatives now. What's lacking is desire and person-power. But the datasheets are there, or the vendor code has been released, or there's linux/otherbsd drivers. Leaving it in there is just delaying the inevitable - drivers need to be fixed, ported, or reverse engineered. This is going to upset users in the same way that eliminating any other transition/sideways compatibility layer upsets users. But as I said, the path forward is fixing up the lack of stable drivers, not simply supporting some crutch. If there are drivers that people absolutely need fixed then they should stand up and say "hey, I really would like X to work better!" and then follow it up with some encouraging incentives. Right now the NDISulator lets people work _around_ this by having something that kind of works for them but it doesn't improve our general driver / stack ecosystems. -adrian On 21 October 2013 14:46, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > "Andrey V. Elsukov" wrote: > > > I'm agree. While there are still some devices without native drivers, > > but that work via NDISulator, we should keep it. > > Yes, best keep it while it helps some people. > > > Adrian Chadd wrote: > > > It's honestly about time that these were updated, fixed and/or ported to > > FreeBSD. > > > > So, I'm still going forward with the plan. I won't be killing it during > the > > 10 lifecycle. > > If ndis is removed while it works, that would be bad for users, > some of whom won't even be on lists, but use ndis as their lifeboat. > > If ndis is later labeled as abandoned & if maintenance ceases, & if it > then breaks, only then will pressure increase on others to step > forward & help fix things; if a wait then sees no one stepping forward, > surely only then would removal seem most appropriate ? > > Cheers, > Julian > -- > Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultant, Munich > http://berklix.com > Interleave replies below like a play script. Indent old text with "> ". > Send plain text, not quoted-printable, HTML, base64, or > multipart/alternative. >