From owner-freebsd-security Thu Apr 12 17:24:30 2001 Delivered-To: freebsd-security@freebsd.org Received: from mail.webmonster.de (datasink.webmonster.de [194.162.162.209]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 26F6137B507 for ; Thu, 12 Apr 2001 17:24:26 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from karsten@rohrbach.de) Received: (qmail 21080 invoked by uid 1000); 13 Apr 2001 00:24:46 -0000 Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:24:46 +0200 From: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" To: Dag-Erling Smorgrav Cc: sthaug@nethelp.no, Mark.Andrews@nominum.com, freebsd-security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: bind hack? Message-ID: <20010413022446.B18721@mail.webmonster.de> Mail-Followup-To: "Karsten W. Rohrbach" , Dag-Erling Smorgrav , sthaug@nethelp.no, Mark.Andrews@nominum.com, freebsd-security@freebsd.org References: <20010412145353.E90025@mail.webmonster.de> <3894.987080227@verdi.nethelp.no> <20010412151456.H90025@mail.webmonster.de> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.2.5i In-Reply-To: ; from des@thinksec.com on Thu, Apr 12, 2001 at 04:53:16PM +0200 X-Arbitrary-Number-Of-The-Day: 42 Sender: owner-freebsd-security@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Dag-Erling Smorgrav(des@thinksec.com)@2001.04.12 16:53:16 +0000: > "Karsten W. Rohrbach" writes: > > sthaug@nethelp.no(sthaug@nethelp.no)@2001.04.12 14:57:07 +0000: > > > Telling *Mark Andrews* to "upgrade to djbdns"? That's one of the best laughs > > > I've had this Easter... > > [...] if it runs, don't touch it. if it screws all the time, try to > > upgrade to a newer version. if newer versions suck all time, replace > > subsystem with a different one. the "then write one yourself" > > section is ommited here [...] > > Oh, but you *shouldn't* omit the "then write one yourself" section. > That's what Mark does. He writes BIND 9. Happy Easter! the "then write one yourself" section is meant totally reflexive. as i said, due to the "standardization process" for dns, the related rfcs as documentation and therefor basis for design it is a shitload of work to get a running (in means of operational _and_ interoperable) dns server software developed, tested and finally deployed. i got no problem at all with people designing their daemon stuff the way they think it would become a stable and useable piece of software that fits for heavy duty server systems. but as there are more and more alternatives to bind, every administrator has the choice. the design behind bind is very complex and so is the software. the more complex you get, the more likely become all the little bugs in there. that's the way i think about software design in general. i like lightweight implementations which are easily extendable - that's all. i must admit that i did not have the time to look into the sources of 9.x, but 8.younameit is a pretty pain to read and understand. therefor this is not a prank - or how you call it - against bind9. i already read some of the papers and reports about 9.x and it sounds promising. to get one thing straight - my post was a bit harsh, but buffer overflows and other flora and fauna a sysadmin has to cope with all day also originate from a distribution-centric monoculture of preinstalled and bundled software. it is not much different from the microsoft security dilemma since this monoculture defines the standard. this does not mean that deviation from standards is good or bad, but with more variety in server software implementations in general the internet will just be a little bit happier. different design approaches lead to a phase where people try and gather experience. these experiences could be and most times actually _are_ thrown together to build a better piece of software, more stable, more secure. and this is the point that differentiates the open source community from big os companies. one thing i can not understand about the opensource os community is, why there are tight bindings between several packages and a distribution. why not let the users/admins choose (well some admins do, i hope) before or while installing/upgrading what server subsytems to install? why is sendmail the standard mta on *bsd, why is bind the standard dns server on *bsd, why are they in the main distribution? they could be packages. the part of bind that is needed for operation of a simple unix box is the resolver. email-wise ther could be a dumbfire local delivery mta. in my opinion an os distribution should be a solid basis to deploy server subsystems on, be it a bind or djbdns, be it sendmail or qmail or even smail, be it a fully blown apache server or just a boa or publicfile httpd. the choice should be the one of the admin installing the box, and i think that it is a bad thing to remove the remnants of the software installed by default to get rid od suid binaries or rogue dotfiles and so on. one last word concerning djb... he might lack social competence and he might act strange sometimes, but what he has to say is often true. i can not understand why many of his concerns are not taken seriously since they could be taken as valuable input to improve existent implementations of server software. (no i do not want to start a djb thread out of this now, these are just my $.02). further discussion via pm. i would not like this thread to become a dennis@etinc.com one. happy easter /k -- > What do you want to re-install today? KR433/KR11-RIPE -- http://www.webmonster.de -- ftp://ftp.webmonster.de To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-security" in the body of the message