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Hermes SMTP Server) with ESMTPA ID 0d6409c4f215c900060086a7b85c3939; Wed, 10 Jan 2024 21:49:47 +0000 (UTC) From: Mark Millard Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3774.300.61.1.2\)) Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 Message-Id: Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 13:49:36 -0800 To: olce@freebsd.org, Current FreeBSD X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3774.300.61.1.2) References: X-Spamd-Bar: --- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.50 / 15.00]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-1.00)[-0.999]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[yahoo.com,reject]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ptr:yahoo.com]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[yahoo.com:s=s2048]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[yahoo.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:36647, ipnet:98.137.64.0/20, country:US]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[yahoo.com:dkim]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[yahoo.com:+]; MLMMJ_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-current@freebsd.org]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[98.137.69.31:from]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[98.137.69.31:from] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4T9M0M5zKSz4s1h Olivier Certner wrote on Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2024 10:01:48 UTC : > What I'm saying is that, based on others' input so far, my own (long, = even if not as long as yours) experience and some late reflection, is = that "noatime" should be the default (everywhere, all mounts and all = FSes), and that working on "relatime" won't make any real difference for = most users (IOW, I think that developing "relatime" is a bad idea *in = general*). And I think this is a sufficiently reasonable conclusion that = anyone with the same inputs would conclude the same. So, if it's not the = case, I would be interested in knowing why, ideally. I never use atime, always noatime, for UFS. That said, I'd never propose changing the long standing defaults for commands and calls. I'd avoid: A) Having natives & required file systems with mismatching defaults. ("required" is for spanning efi/msdosfs partitions if the = atime/noatime makes a distinction there. So not just UFS/FFS and ZFS.) B) Having files systems that are not OS specific have unusual defaults compared to those other OS's when there is documented uniformity. (openzfs being such an example file system.) C) Having defaults unlike most other closely related operating systems that support the file system when there is generally documented uniformity. (No claim to have checked on the uniformity generally.) (Other BSDs, Unix, Linux, . . .) D) Having defaults for non-native files systems that are different than the native contexts for the file system have when they have = uniformity. (So, for example, linux ext4 use would get linux etx4 default = behavior for atime vs. noatime if such is basically uniform across most linux's.) Note: I've worded the above as if things are always per file system. Command default that apply across file systems that have the feature of allowing stored atime are also relevant. But the wording gets messy if expanded in each relevant place above. Picking openzfs as an example of documented uniformity . . . https://openzfs.github.io/openzfs-docs/man/master/7/zfsprops.7.html = documents: QUOTE atime=3Don|offControls whether the access time for files is updated when = they are read. Turning this property off avoids producing write traffic = when reading files and can result in significant performance gains, = though it might confuse mailers and other similar utilities. The values = on and off are equivalent to the atime and noatime mount options. The = default value is on. END QUOTE Unless openzfs manges to decide to change that default across OSs, in my view FreeBSD should have it be left as documented for its use of openzfs. Given that, having FreeBSD UFS/FFS be the other way would be problematical in my view, even ignoring defaults for non-FreeBSD that support UFS/FFS use. In my view , the burden to make things work relative such defaults is not worth the consequences of making a bunch of new distinctions in a long standing subject area. =3D=3D=3D Mark Millard marklmi at yahoo.com