From owner-freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Wed Oct 24 13:44:39 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E69FD9D02 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ua1-x944.google.com (mail-ua1-x944.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::944]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "Google Internet Authority G3" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02F3C8EE6C for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:39 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-ua1-x944.google.com with SMTP id c10so1861470uao.12 for ; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:44:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=2DXuiWjjvcOgNMSyAZpPAN2uFGwXsKfvo59f+0Wz8a8=; b=pakNqQO+a2iHXaLpQNJT7nQWWAUlaYzNRuEnD4cw+F6Pg8NaDxOoM6yBiOY1iv2Hlj 6myGynn/mzSC4NBljs7ZuxAmxQXzj32xHmKCIGuFBqIpNRUGn/mPAsPiDhhplhb0q4GZ OcEiR8fYCc7F3R4jj+1WGsWNuW9xA4LpjN437whWF2ODtYJYbLVEzHqnHzi50Uy09mwn yWQRI1yqjA3OMyDLgfCr9vVkKfYCPsZo+zNLeixPL3lJmshz+QSedGB5jYXvMbDzzj3I I7KtN7szGN8l6uwowpAptokfPvg49gG4zFbjn3cTN5EYg3vtfedplZE6C4iENlyeqtwV uutw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=2DXuiWjjvcOgNMSyAZpPAN2uFGwXsKfvo59f+0Wz8a8=; b=EFifFDF2Qab+8Y8QUhbBJLsp3RIZGxlauwatXfQOBwrHF43JrsPUFxAxBfXpt3OAM4 o2BLdZnK6Ad0I1KaDRy7ziGxlfBUxK4JMUwFEE0qIu0Ix4MRlKjhSyTzmTuaPhyYy7+o YKYsHqWeIbTEz49T1qnndJQnHg9HMXwUY6ZJIhrDREBu+RoMmMLSdXd2QVWi88j+TSCm TGz7t6E6WXOpTDDDP7pAvRHGCzuSL8F+XRRnoDW4cVeVSDcGSJntuhzJCL0/s4ZwRNtH CCPi3ymCfVb8xfmXjOkf1cxwLrhaw+r7KfLuQMEfX5HyH7bt1h9M6SlAnhAILfR1fJbk oPmA== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gIg+jEpDCDDVN373RTjwMzgkAr6cDbR+JdkKJduj0XQbfEHrqj7 Jtf5OXYfizd7PVgERlnmKP+UYAf6KrPX1//46wsbCw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5dXkqJdUZq4ZQb1kNFWEuItozQybopyAqw8QaVs+hio60L1zj0p7kVMYK7KrYehJ5NhaIkIAAZFf67lTEL9Bxc= X-Received: by 2002:ab0:14a4:: with SMTP id d33mr1115424uae.41.1540388678365; Wed, 24 Oct 2018 06:44:38 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <9257C84A-CA7C-42B9-9AD8-89AE33C96356@gid.co.uk> <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> In-Reply-To: <201810241219.w9OCJXTd027720@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 07:44:26 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers To: "Rodney W. Grimes" Cc: Bob Bishop , Brooks Davis , FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , Ian Lepore , FreeBSD Net , "Julian H. Stacey" , Michelle Sullivan , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 14:11:28 +0000 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 24 Oct 2018 13:44:39 -0000 On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 6:19 AM Rodney W. Grimes < freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > On 24 Oct 2018, at 01:23, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 6:02 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > > freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > > > > >> -- Start of PGP signed section. > > >>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 04:26:45PM -0700, Rodney W. Grimes wrote: > > >>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:07 PM Rodney W. Grimes < > > >>>>> freebsd-rwg@pdx.rh.cn85.dnsmgr.net> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 11:33:35PM +0200, Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > >>>>>>>>> I'd also suggest that rl stands in stark contrast to the cs, > > >> wb, sn, > > >>>>>> smc, > > >>>>>>>>> sf, tl, tx and vr drivers, which nobody has mentioned in this > > >>>>>> thread, and > > >>>>>>>>> which I doubt are in use in any FreeBSD system of any age > > >> today. > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> vr is used by my TV driver laptop: > > >>>>>>>> http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ > > >>>>>>>> vr0: flags=8843 metric > > >> 0 mtu > > >>>>>> 1500 > > >>>>>>>> options=82808 > > >>>>>>>> ether 00:40:d0:5e:26:38 > > >>>>>>>> inet 192.168.91.65 netmask 0xffffff00 broadcast > > >> 192.168.91.255 > > >>>>>>>> media: Ethernet autoselect (100baseTX > > >>>>>> ) > > >>>>>>>> status: active > > >>>>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> Which currently runs 8.4-RELEASE & eg xrandr, but I'll upgrade > > >> soon > > >>>>>>>> when I also configure it to receive from a raspberry-pi TV VPN > > >> server. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The above was a typo. vr is on the the STAY list. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> -- Brooks > > >>>>>> Brooks, > > >>>>>> Is there a public revised version of FCP-0101 that > > >> reflects the > > >>>>>> feedback which is what core is voting on? > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Its on github, just like it's been the whole time for anybody to > see, > > >>>>> submit pull requests against and track: > > >>>> > > >>>> I have no gh account, desires no gh account, so have no way to > > >>>> submit a change request other than through direct email to > > >>>> brooks or another gh user. This is fundementally flawed. > > >>>> > > >>>>> https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md > > >>>> > > >>>> Thank you for the link, I had looked at it before MeetBSD, > > >>>> which did not have most of the recent changes done "a day ago". > > >>>> > > >>>> Isnt this document now in a frozen state while core reviews/votes? > > >>> > > >>> I sent it to a vote at c224c67557297d7cba909ad008542cb60980cc6b only > > >>> to notice a bug in table rendering. I submitted a pull request fix > > >>> that and a missing word which was merged since neither was > material. I > > >>> suppose they could have waited or been skipped, but there's no value > in > > >>> the FCP process being bound by the sort of pointless rigidity that > led > > >>> to -DPOSIX_MISTAKE in every libc compile line. > > >> > > >> The FCP process itself is unclear on this point, > > >> I think this should be clarified. > > >> > > >> It is much more clear on post approval: > > >> Changes after acceptance > > >> > > >> FCPs may need revision after they have been moved into the > > >> accepted state. In such cases, the author SHOULD update the > > >> FCP to reflect the final conclusions. > > >> If the changes are major, the FCP SHOULD be withdrawn > > >> and restarted. > > >> > > > > > > Good point Rod. While common sense suggests that trivial changes > during the > > > voting should be allowed for editorial purposes (eg fix grammar > mistakes, > > > table rendering etc), it's better to spell that out so there's no > confusion. > > > > > > diff --git a/fcp-0000.md b/fcp-0000.md > > > index b4fe0f3..c8cc6f7 100644 > > > --- a/fcp-0000.md > > > +++ b/fcp-0000.md > > > @@ -144,7 +144,10 @@ When the discussion of a change has come to a > suitable > > > and acceptable close it > > > SHOULD be updated to the `vote` state. > > > > > > At this time the FreeBSD Core Team will vote on the subject of the > FCP. The > > > -result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > > > +result of vote moves the FCP into the `accepted` or `rejected` state. > The > > > +core team MAY make minor edits to the FCP to correct minor mistakes. > Core > > > +MAY return the proposal to the submitter if there are major problems > that > > > +need to be addressed. > > > > This is a Bad Idea, because it relies on common understanding of what is > minor. I was once involved with a standards body that had a procedure for > so-called clerical errors intended to deal with typos, punctuation etc; > this worked just fine until somebody claimed that the omission of the word > ?not? in a particular place was clearly a clerical error. > > And I have read case law that boiled down to the presents vs absence > of a comma in an agreement that had results far beyond "minor". > > Use of words minor and major should be red flags unless both > or explicitly defined, and even then those definitions often > have issues themselves. > I'm not going to define every single word. FCP documents describe process. They are not legal documents, nor should they be. Major and minor have common enough meanings, and the basis of bylaws is that we trust core@. Warner > > > FCPs in the `accepted` state can be updated and corrected. > > > See the "Changes after acceptance" section for more information. > > > > > > Normally I'd submit that as a pull request, but since I know you don't > use > > > github, I thought I'd present it here to see if this answers your > concerns > > > before doing so. > > > > > > Warner > > > _______________________________________________ > > > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > > > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > > > To unsubscribe, send any mail to " > freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > > > > > > > -- > > Bob Bishop > > rb@gid.co.uk > > -- > Rod Grimes > rgrimes@freebsd.org >