From owner-freebsd-chat Tue Feb 2 00:09:28 1999 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id AAA04177 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:09:28 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from mail4.aracnet.com (mail4.aracnet.com [205.159.88.46]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA04169 for ; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:09:25 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from mark@linux4life.com) Received: from sara.linux4life.com (IDENT:mark@ppp-d32.cust.aracnet.com [216.99.195.156]) by mail4.aracnet.com (8.9.1/8.9.0) with SMTP id AAA26610; Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:09:08 -0800 Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:10:35 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Byram To: Sue Blake cc: freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: desktop stupidity In-Reply-To: <19990202185713.43112@welearn.com.au> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org Sounds like you have a few stereo types of your own Sue... Please don't be too hard on "us" insensitive brutes... :) On Tue, 2 Feb 1999, Sue Blake wrote: > Now wait a minute! Most of you people don't know what newbies need, you > haven't asked them, won't listen or believe or sit down with them to > help them work it out for themselves, you're so set with your > comfortable little stereotypes that you really think you know the Great > Truth and have all the solutions and nobody can tell you different, > least of all a loathsome newbie. You think you can just dish something > up and they'll love it. What if you're wrong? Oh, yes, newbies fault. > > As a group you show very little respect for newbies, yet you think you > can get your jollies off by patronising the types of lazy wimps that no > self-respecting FreeBSD newbie would want to be associated with. With > luck you might even trap some newbies into perpetual helplessness and > some of you might raise your status as helpers by so doing. > > You're mad, the lot of you. Stop and learn (remember that?), or go back > to your kernel entrails. > > We have a few hundred newbies here who constantly try to do the right > thing, who want to learn, and are largely ignored because, not fitting > the stereotype, they're not fun to pick on or you can't get warm > fuzzies and the occasional sucked toe from having fun "helping" them > the way you see fit. Throwing GUI at them is like telling them to eat > cake. All they want is the bloody recipe and a bit of human respect. > > The newbies I see are put off or held back by: > - lack of reliable advice as to what to do/learn first, second, third ... > - lack of suitable documentation at the right pace and starting point > - misunderstanding of their learning needs by others > - inaccessibility of many of the tools they need to use during the > first few hours, before being able to execute a learning plan > - misguided attempts to "help" them which only hold them back > - a constant trickle of put-downs and resultant lack of confidence > - inability to create what they need for themselves or communicate > needs to developers > > They might have only had some GUI background, but that does not mean > they want to stay that way. Why the hell do you think they're running > FreeBSD, because they're too stupid to know what it is? Come on! Lack > of knowledge does not indicate stupidity. I'll challenge any of you to > a test of crochet knowledge or skill and see how you fare! > > As I see it, *the* problem that faces new users is that their learning > involves too many other struggles in addition to the learning process, > as outlined above. Yet despite these glaring needs, you're all crapping > on about how much fun you would have getting together some GUI > environment and/or tools that would > - attract people who have no intention of learning anything new > - make it extremely difficult for our current type of newbies to > get inside and find out how things work. > - provide time-wasting support fodder to reinforce the stereotype > > Now you want to add one more problem: an environmental prison that at > first makes learning seem unnecessary, and later on makes it much more > inaccessible than what we have now. What on earth makes you think > newbies want such a mindless and limiting GUI? They want a basic plain > but non-hostile interface that is easy for them to work with initially > and easy to learn to control themselves. For those who most deserve > help, KDE just doesn't cut it. Nor does any other window manager > without a lot more easy guides for inquisitive non-programmers and > suitably annotated configuration files (yes I said files, NOT tools). > > I keep saying this and the time has come round again: > > Newbies will adapt to become whatever you expect of them. > > Think carefully before you act; you might just get whatever you expect. > > > KDE is nice for what it is and should be provided with FreeBSD and made > easy to install. There's nothing wrong with KDE for those who prefer it > to the alternatives, or those who have a paid administrator at their > elbow. It's just not *the* answer, even if you were asking the right > questions. We don't have the resources to deal with attracting people > who can't survive without something like KDE. We can't even cope with > the beginner linux refugees and wannabe developers who are working > through their newbie phase right now, and that's a more urgent priority > as I see it. Newbies have contributed a huge amount during the last 12 > months, and are a growing resource we can't afford to chase away or > restrict to an environment of learned helplessness. > > What's that I hear down the back? diffs? Yeah they're coming. Don't > hold your breath too hard though. It takes me a hundred times as long > as it'd take someone who knows what they're doing, but it's still > quicker than knocking sense into some of your collectively patronising > heads, and far less humiliating. > > > -- > > Regards, > -*Sue*- > > > To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org > with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message > Sincerely, %###% (0-0) ----oOO----(_)----------- | Mark Byram | | | | UNIX is all you need! | -------------------oOO--- |__I__| || || ooO Ooo To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message