Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2001 06:14:06 -0500 From: Michael Lucas <mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org> To: D J Hawkey Jr <hawkeyd@visi.com> Cc: Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: Re: Tangent for discussion: FreeBSD performs worse that Linux Message-ID: <20011211061406.C35343@blackhelicopters.org> In-Reply-To: <20011210173206.A1795@sheol.localdomain>; from hawkeyd@visi.com on Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:32:06PM -0600 References: <20011210155924.A1542@sheol.localdomain> <Pine.NEB.3.96L.1011210170942.4035Z-100000@fledge.watson.org> <20011210173206.A1795@sheol.localdomain>
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On Mon, Dec 10, 2001 at 05:32:06PM -0600, D J Hawkey Jr wrote:
> Don't get me wrong - I don't expect the same level of support from the
> FreeBSD Project than I would from, say, Sybase or Sun. Having said that,
> I think FreeBSD's is outstanding, even compared to some other commercial
> *cough*Microsquish(tm)*cough* entities.
Yep, that's why we're here. Glad you think so, mind you!
> My current plans are to have several patchfiles, grouped by subject (bugfix
> and/or enhancement), and subordinately grouped by FreeBSD release:
>
> ich_sound-patch-4.2REL.udiff delayed_ack-patch-4.2REL.udiff
> ich_sound-patch-4.3REL.udiff delayed_ack-patch-4.3REL.udiff
> ich_sound-patch-4.3STA.udiff agp_for_xf86-patch-4.2REL.udiff
>
> You get the idea.
<Mr. Burns voice>Excellent</Mr. Burns voice>
Other people will help with QA, if this takes off. Believe me, if a
patch blows up a system you'll hear about it.
> Hey, I'm not taking _anything_ away from y'all; I think all the BSDs are
> outstanding products. I'm just gonna see if I can't fulfill what I percieve
> as a support deficiency (again, from my own perspective) in my own little
> way.
That's the only way anything gets done around here; someone sees a
need, and fills it. The only question is, is this a need? From
watching the mailing lists, I certainly think it is.
> PS, I'm rather honored that such an illustrious group has shown
> interest enough to even discuss all this with me.
You know, I think I'm going to write an article on this, I say it
often enough.
#include <rant.h>
The FreeBSD group is really not that illustrious. Some of us are --
if Bruce Evans speaks, we all shut up and listen. We are simply the
people who do the work. Everything that is done, is done because
someone thought there was a need. I got my start in the FreeBSD
community back in 1999 by writing articles. This isn't something that
*directly* benefits the Project; it adds nothing to the CVS repo, and
doesn't get me the coveted @freebsd.org email address. It's
important, however, and something that I am very well-qualified to do.
So I shut up, and did it. It got me a certain amount of recognition
and respect in the community, it was fun, and it satisfied my itch to
solve a problem.
There is a huge amount of basic grunt work that can be done. Nobody
bothers to do it, so it doesn't happen. People such as you and I can
ease a vital gap by simply picking some little hole, and doing the
work to fill it. It's not glamorous. It's not exciting. But it lets
people like $YOURFAVORITECODECOMMITTER get on with stuff that only
they can do.
Lots of people say that they want to help. Lots of people make
suggestions.
Some make suggestions that are well beyond their ability to perform.
In this case, those suggestions are usually either obvious ("Hey,
wouldn't it be cool if FreeBSD supported FireWire?") or clueless ("Why
don't we have a kernel option READMYMINDANDDOWHATIWANT?"). These
suggestions are generally ignored; both would be good ideas, but one
requires convincing a developer to pick it up and the other is
brain-dead.
Some suggestions are within the ability of the people making the
suggestion. Posting on a mailing list and saying "Hey, would this be
a good idea?" is a great way to tell if you have a boneheaded idea, or
if you have a serious need. Your case is a great example of this.
You can't expect a thousand people to write back and say "Oh, it's a
good idea." This is a public discussion board, and everyone on it
gets far too much email as-is. If we read something we agree with, we
aren't going to all post "me too!" But if you get a few people
publically agreeing with you, and nobody says "Your idea sucks!", you
can generally assume that it's a decent idea.
Once you have buy-in, go *DO IT*. I've seen a lot of decent ideas
come across the FreeBSD mailing lists since 1996. Most of them die on
the vine.
The point is this:
J D, you have an idea. Your messages have been read by most of the
readers of this mailing list. You have gotten a "do it!" from a few
people, including a -core member. You have gotten a few side comments
from other developers, such as Matt Dillon's comment on your future in
the flame wars. So, people have actually read this thread. I might
be wrong, but I don't believe that you have received a message saying
"Your idea sucks!" You have also received a few comments on other
ways this can be handled; this should be taken in the spirit in which
it is meant, which is "It's a good idea, here's how you could improve
it."
In FreeBSD, this is what passes for "management buy-in."
This is not the first time I've seen this idea on this mailing list.
I sincerely, devoutly hope that it is the last.
So, I officially challenge you: are you going to do it, or is this
going to wither on the vine like every other time it's been suggested?
Consider the gauntlet thrown (in the kindest possible manner, mind
you). Put up an initial patchset, announce it here and on, say,
daily.daemonnews.org, list an email address for patches on the web
page, and see what happens.
In fact, if you do it well, you might even find a vaguely well-known
BSD columnist picking up your site in a future article.
==ml
--
Michael Lucas
mwlucas@FreeBSD.org, mwlucas@blackhelicopters.org
http://www.blackhelicopters.org/~mwlucas/
Big Scary Daemons: http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/q/Big_Scary_Daemons
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