From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jul 14 20:14:10 2005 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C635D16A41C; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:14:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jd@ugcs.caltech.edu) Received: from spew.ugcs.caltech.edu (spew.ugcs.caltech.edu [131.215.176.102]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8314543D46; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:14:10 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jd@ugcs.caltech.edu) Received: by spew.ugcs.caltech.edu (Postfix, from userid 3640) id 2FED8E816; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by spew.ugcs.caltech.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F29FE815; Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 13:14:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Jon Dama To: Matthias Buelow In-Reply-To: <20050714195253.GA23666@drjekyll.mkbuelow.net> Message-ID: References: <42D6B117.5080302@plab.ku.dk> <20050714191449.A8A615D07@ptavv.es.net> <20050714195253.GA23666@drjekyll.mkbuelow.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Cc: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: dangerous situation with shutdown process X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2005 20:14:10 -0000 softupdates is perfectly safe with SCSI. its well known that ide and sata w/wo ncq fails to provide suitable semantics for softupdates however, journaling fairs no better, and request barriers do nothing to solve the problem. Request Barriers under linux exist to prevent the low level kernel block device layer from reordering write operations from the upper file system layers. Request Barriers consist of nothing more than tagging internal queues within the Linux kernel itself. They do nothing to resolve the underlying failures of the hardware to provide proper semantics to the block device layer. but, Request Barriers are ultimately useless. They can't resolve the underlying problems with ide/sata and there are already exposed semantics for scsi. if you absolutely must use sata and have reliable writes, make use of sata with battery-backed raid controller. On Thu, 14 Jul 2005, Matthias Buelow wrote: > Kevin Oberman wrote: > > >> How can I fix it on my system? > > > >SCSI or ATA? If it's ATA, turn off write cache with (atacontrol(8) or > >the sysctl. > > You do NOT want to do that. Not only will performance drop brutally > (example: drop to 1/5th of normal write speed for sequential writes, > probably worse for random writes) but it will also significantly > reduce the lifetime of your disk. Modern disks are designed to be > used with the write-back cache enabled, so don't turn it off. > > >The problem is that disks lie about whether they have actually written > >data. If the power goes off before the data is in cache, it's lost. > > No, the problem is that FreeBSD doesn't implement request barriers > and that softupdates is flawed by design and seemingly could not > make use of them, even if they were available (because, as I > understand it, it relies on a total ordering of all writes, unlike > the partial ordering necessary for a journalled fs). > > Until a journalled fs that uses write request barriers is available > for FreeBSD, you better had a reliable UPS. > > mkb. > > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" >