From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Feb 8 03:30:14 2008 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F9916A419; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:30:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from ns.trinitel.com (186.161.36.72.static.reverse.ltdomains.com [72.36.161.186]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE4B013C458; Fri, 8 Feb 2008 03:30:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Received: from proton.local (r74-193-81-203.pfvlcmta01.grtntx.tl.dh.suddenlink.net [74.193.81.203]) (authenticated bits=0) by ns.trinitel.com (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id m183U0Rq016971; Thu, 7 Feb 2008 21:30:03 -0600 (CST) (envelope-from anderson@freebsd.org) Message-ID: <47ABCCB3.70009@freebsd.org> Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2008 21:29:55 -0600 From: Eric Anderson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.9 (Macintosh/20071031) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeff Roberson References: <20080207141820.GR99258@elvis.mu.org> <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080207.165316.1678770676.imp@bsdimp.com> <20080207155338.Q15691@desktop> In-Reply-To: <20080207155338.Q15691@desktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.1 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.8 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.8 (2007-02-13) on ns.trinitel.com X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:34:37 +0000 Cc: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org, yar@freebsd.org, swhetzel@gmail.com, andre@freebsd.org, jeff@freebsd.org, alfred@freebsd.org, attilio@freebsd.org, dougb@freebsd.org, freebsd-arch@freebsd.org, "M. Warner Losh" Subject: Re: [RFC] Remove NTFS kernel support X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2008 03:30:14 -0000 Jeff Roberson wrote: > On Thu, 7 Feb 2008, M. Warner Losh wrote: > >> In message: <20080207.163454.-1471235838.imp@bsdimp.com> >> "M. Warner Losh" writes: >> : In message: <3bbf2fe10802070621h574f5d3kb4fbd86adbab11c@mail.gmail.com> >> : "Attilio Rao" writes: >> : : 2008/2/7, Alfred Perlstein : >> : : > * Attilio Rao [080207 06:13] wrote: >> : : > > 2008/2/7, Andre Oppermann : >> : : > > > Eric Anderson wrote: >> : : > > > > I think Alfred's point is really interesting. How many >> people that >> : : > > > > don't use it that say 'axe it' does it take to override 1 >> person saying >> : : > > > > 'keep it!'? >> : : > > > >> : : > > > The real question is how many people does it take to say >> 'I'll maintain >> : : > > > it'? Just one. Without it, it will only bitrot as >> evidenced by Attilios >> : : > > > question. NTFS is currently broken, just not as obvious >> because WITNESS >> : : > > > didn't track and enforce lockmgr locks. >> : : > > >> : : > > Andre catched exactly my point. >> : : > > The big problem is that we have a list of several unmaintained >> fs. >> : : > > NTFS is in this list. The support is not reliable, it is only >> : : > > available in read mode and eventually bugged. >> : : > > I'm not sure I want to keep this if nobody wants to maintain it. >> : : > >> : : > All I'm saying is that I think this is a bit premature considering >> : : > the users. Within less than 24hrs we've had a few users reporting >> : : > in as users, I'm sure the fixes (now that we have some good >> assertions) >> : : > are going to be trivial. >> : : > >> : : > Why not let it ferment/rot for a release cycle and then see what >> : : > the story is? >> : : >> : : Obviously if we can fix it is better, but axing is an opportunity I >> : : don't want to leave out and this is why I wanted to poll users about >> : : this issue. Eventually, if an axing is decided, it won't happen in >> : : short times but only once all situations for "migration" will be >> : : probed and finished. >> : >> : WE SHOULD NOT AXE IT. IT IS TOO USEFUL. VERY RECENTLY IT WORKED VERY >> : WELL. >> : >> : There's a lot of other systems in the tree that aren't nearly as >> : useful that nobody is complaining about that are actually in much >> : worse shape. >> >> OK. I shouldn't have shouted. My basic point is that ntfs worked >> very recently, and therefore we owe it to ourselves to give it some >> time to get fixed. fuse is unknown, not even in head and the >> performance characteristics between the two aren't known. Also, I use >> ntfs to recover data from "crashed" disks because it copes well with >> bad spots on the disk. None of the other filesystems in the tree does >> this, and that makes it a very powerful tool for dealing with crashed >> disks that others say are unrecoverable. > > Not picking on anyone in particular, but let's keep in mind that this > was an enquiry not a real proposal to axe it right away. I suggested > Attilio find out if there were users and clearly there are. So there is > value in keeping this thing working and fuse isn't a sure bet. We just > wanted to understand the situation before acting. > > However, this is open source. Some one needs to step up to the plate > and fix these bugs. It's only 4,700 lines of code. It shouldn't be > insurmountable for someone who has a passing understanding of VFS. > > Some of the bugs were exposed by better asserts and witness support by > Attilio. I don't think his effort to fix lockmgr should be hung up > trying to understand ntfs however unless he directly broke it. It's > going to have to continue firing asserts until someone fixes it. > > Also, ntfs is a strange bird compared to other filesystems. Briefly > looking at it, there may be some subtle architectural problems with it. > For example, it creates 'ntnode' inodes that aren't associated with > vnodes and so have their own lifecycle management. It is likely that > this is the source of the panics that I have heard of. > > An eager volunteer might also consider making it MPSAFE to further > reduce the number of filesystems which require Giant so we can > eventually drop the hideous giant wrappers. Are all the known bugs entered into gnats already? Eric