From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Feb 19 09:03:49 2005 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD9F216A4CE for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:03:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com (mail.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.192.90]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4998643D1F for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:03:49 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) Received: from tedwin2k (nat-rtr.freebsd-corp-net-guide.com [65.75.197.130]) j1J93pj68384 for ; Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:03:51 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from tedm@toybox.placo.com) From: "Ted Mittelstaedt" To: Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 01:03:51 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.6604 (9.0.2911.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 In-Reply-To: <14810029770.20050214172307@wanadoo.fr> Importance: Normal Subject: RE: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched. X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2005 09:03:50 -0000 > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > [mailto:owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]On Behalf Of Anthony > Atkielski > Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 8:23 AM > To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org > Subject: Re: Choosing to install turns off laptop. HD is untouched. > > > While this has (mostly) gone away for desktop systems, it is > still going > > on fiercely with laptops. > > One reason why I've always hated laptops. > ditto! > > First of all HP purchased Compaq a while ago, and when the sale was > > completed they dumped the Netserver line, servers from them are > > now HP Proliants. (Proliant was the Compaq line) > > Are they as good as their HP and Compaq predecessors? > Very much so. One of the things that HP did that was smart after the Compaq merger is they didn't screw with the server design and manufacturing group. (However the sales/customer service/ordering side of the company is a mess, that's why Carly got nailed) You have to take a lot of the trade rag articles with a grain of salt. It's currently fashionable for the trade press to write articles calling for HP to spin off it's PC computer group as if that's going to save them money somehow, followed by bemoaning the poor quality of the HP desktops. The articles conclude that HP must have lost focus since they can't made a decent PC. What this misses is that HP is like all other major PC manufacturers, all of their desktop line that's aimed at the home user/small business desktop market is just badged Chinese/Korean schlock. They have the cases, components, boards, chips, etc. all made in Korea then import the finished assemblies to the country of sale, and assemble them there at high speed. (Dell's plant in Texas can pump them out at a rate of 1 every 1.5 seconds) The assemblies are all using the same parts and the systems are pretty much equally schlocky. The companies that make profits in this market are the companies that can slap them together the fastest. HP's stuff is no worse or better than anyone else's in this market. The server design and manufacturing is a totally different animal. The companies like HP and Dell that make them custom design a large amount of the stuff and the assembly isn't the million-miles-a-second frantic pace of the desktop junk. > > The Netservers and Proliants in general never had touble > with FreeBSD. > > Considering they certified them with Solaris/Netware/etc. they had to > > be pretty standard. > > Compaq Proliants had a lot of weird stuff running on the server, as I > recall. As long as you stuck to the OEM versions it ran fine, but if > you tried to wipe the machine and install a vanilla OS, things went > wrong. > Not if you know what your doing. The sister company of the ISP I work at was a Compaq VAR, (is now an HP VAR) and all our servers are Proliants of various models. Yes, there is a lot of specialty hardware in these boxes. And yes to access all of that requires a handful of custom drivers. But, OEM versions of the operating systems aren't a requirement. You can install retail versions just fine - AS LONG AS you follow Compaq's instructions on how to install the retail OS's exactly. There is for example several hardware items in some of these servers where they are modded versions of off-the-shelf chips, and Compaq supplies modded windows drivers. If you don't use the Compaq driver then the retail OS will install it's included driver for the off-the-shelf version of the chip. And you only get 1 chance during the install of the retail OS that you can insert the Compaq-written driver properly. If you miss it, you have to wipe the disk and start over because the retail driver cannot be removed. There's unfortunately too many people in the business used to shooting from the hip on windows installs. Someone who didn't read the directions for the Proliant on how to install a retail version of Windows, for example, assuming "I've installed windows a hundred times I know what I'm doing and don't need no manual for dummies" is of course going to have things going wrong. > > Fine advice for low-end servers and desktops. Terrible for high-end > > servers unless you really, really know what your doing, and you > > understand that your total cost will be more than if you just buy > > a turnkey server from someone. And rather impossible for laptops. > > Impossible for laptops, yes. I assume anyone who needs a really > high-end server is going to know a lot about what he is doing, anyway Not at all realistic. The VAST and I mean VAST majority of people that need a high-end server are not technologists and don't know what the heck they are doing. They know whatever their business is like the back of their hand but they don't know PC's, and they are smart enough to know this and to hire it out. The problem is that still too many computer consultants out there are incompetent. It was far, far worse 4-5 years ago and things have improved 1000%, but the situation is still very much like the stereotype of the woman who doesen't know anything about cars, looking for a mechanic to fix hers. The people needing servers aren't competent to choose or rate the quality of people they hire to install servers for them, and so how are they going to know if they select an installer that is piecing together a server for them from off the shelf parts, if that guy is using good parts or parts designed for garbage grade desktops? It's still much better for the person that needs a server and doesen't know anything about them, to find a installer or consultant that will only sell them a name-brand server, ie: Dell/HP/whatever, because if it turns out the installer is an idiot, then they haven't wasted their money on junk hardware in addition to the worthless consultant. > > Of course, if you can find a high-end server that meets your > requirements, there's no need to build one yourself. I'd still prefer > that it be delivered without any OS, though, just to avoid the OEM > tweaking. > > It's one thing to optimize server hardware and software for server use; > I'm all in favor of that. But I think it should always be done with > off-the-shelf products that you can buy anywhere, otherwise you risk > being the captive of a specific vendor or vendors. For every advantage > you might get from OEM tweaks, there is likely to be a corresponding > disadvantage. > Not that realistic for many environments. Some of the speciality gear put in servers is stuff like allowing a remote admin who is 500 miles away, to do things like take the server down, change BIOS settings or flash the BIOS, then bring it back up. The other problem is that "optimized server hardware for server use" and "off-the-shelf products" are mutually exclusive. Ted