From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:21:13 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2CD33C787B for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:21:13 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-io1-xd35.google.com (mail-io1-xd35.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BjjbX5G0tz4H2k for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:21:12 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-io1-xd35.google.com with SMTP id b16so7708156ioj.4 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:21:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SKXEGdxSBMZ1P9VJOKGThei2NPWzTrUKdqSCbOF8qDM=; b=asPrCg/GXvqcB2zSONzg55xstpT7UvFO3APiqkR/nsRPfyTeMeuZmLyYlczedfYRSw KlR63p1IPHtp103VpXoRwoK3O8HD7maSVSyf2dWvQa8lIDPtquds3Bjsw5+rUQGnSTnm izuJtDZljZ6AHy0gQnfMc6rZZMeLhu9vCOfs/YvLq4Pi/xF16NiHLMHw4u4T8K/ytwhe oFy+gKHZJVOEM6qw7A9qfgM08v9qopIEm+0+PoH6QuqygjiUBaIV/Vkfz8glBdME5ymG i2q5rsdCmMFVDmAYIdlHoP9xhREaDM/an3KiTvd7WLD6E8UX0HIcMWqiJP/M7jRMgyWG WCKw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SKXEGdxSBMZ1P9VJOKGThei2NPWzTrUKdqSCbOF8qDM=; b=odZo14aJTIfJWk1y7OlKJzvG4giyeS2bFpMAOABj1IjChNZQ/qiEkYXTqM3IAsMDXH dRR4tORsxSMER2UUHw9f8I4f0gACTOkW1txXMdBzjY8Ba+FhYGVHQjczJeo4OhMj4UC7 v7hfJEtHTt0KWrR8WcqUDfUm7l0/l17Y+pu2lKDO4McwBie/FuYsvzPjvknDPqbjeWol sMWyVDkA54d0VOn+5xg45idblx4Zq1pQGGE4H2wUDtJMgENgaB2JdjbQhTttWM2302jK pbTwneeuXGfVuHP6z2j+GaEvUlOpuZYQnc7iDLNtZ0Jw8+W6F98jERWE/rtJxAvDn3W3 gj3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM530nKaTv65jutfBxCdWhdx+Y16gX5SmZR9tAuMkpEnA5D+PArj3C d4YodjSwjvIewzYXECxDAJlXsUoYLp0ZT6pmY47aj2up6Uc= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxmSMjU0Iyc99VPBz9q35KU6WvN3l8UdcFnpytd09sWK2EgNiHvPKMXWqrLc7ydwgH9omGkC60jlNvjbajG9L0= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6602:2a43:: with SMTP id k3mr7959228iov.83.1599236471694; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:21:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:21:00 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4BjjbX5G0tz4H2k X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=asPrCg/G; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.37 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.984]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.97)[-0.975]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::d35:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.41)[-0.410]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:21:13 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:13 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-09-04 11:12, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400, Vlad D. Markov wrote: > >> When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be directed at > >> the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do with > >> it. > > > > Apart from the embedded systems you described, it's probably not wise > > if a Linux distro diverts from using systemd, since systemd is quasi > > the standard init system and it's bundled with at least udev. > > Maintaining a different init system, while maintaining udev or > > something else from systemd, for usage without systemd, seems to me way > > to much effort, even when being in favour of Linux. However, if > > somebody is really that tired of Linux, as the OP is, I wouldn't care > > about Linux at all, especially not since the OP doesn't need to search > > for an operating system that fits to his needs. He already seems to be > > satisfied with FreeBSD, so there's no problem at all. > > My sentiment exactly. > Except for one problem if you use FreeBSD as a desktop you're forced to deal with the systemd stupidity because Xorg (and wayland) refuse to believe that the entire universe does not use their prefered brain dead OS. So it is not academic if you are using FreeBSD for more than just a server. Even then unless you want to use plain vanilla Apache then you are forced to deal with it to some degree for example even though the Java team for FreeBSD has done a good job removing it as much as possible from openjdk there is still some weirdness there. VirtualBox has not been able to successfully compile anything newer than 5.X because of the same problems. So saying "if you like FreeBSD and hate systemd/linux then use FreeBSD" is not really an option due to the viral nature of systemd and the laziness of developers who use it. TL;dr -- Due to many reasons just ignoring the problem because your on FreeBSD is not an answer -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org