From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Mon Apr 20 19:25:56 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0C5CF2AC299 for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:25:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e.0x20.net) Received: from mail.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [46.251.251.56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 495c9v1K2rz3Qsg for ; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:25:54 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from lars@e.0x20.net) Received: from e.0x20.net (mail.0x20.net [46.251.251.56]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (3096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (No client certificate requested) by mail.0x20.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 542B063BB; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:25:47 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from lars@localhost) by e.0x20.net (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 03KJPkYp050771; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:25:46 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from lars) Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 21:25:46 +0200 From: Lars Engels To: Mike Remski Cc: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Ars Technica article on FreeBSD new user experience Message-ID: <20200420192546.GO50566@e.0x20.net> References: <9bc85f04-ed38-4d5a-bec3-551079cdcb2b@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <9bc85f04-ed38-4d5a-bec3-551079cdcb2b@comcast.net> X-Editor: VIM - Vi IMproved 8.0 User-Agent: Mutt/1.13.4 (2020-02-15) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 495c9v1K2rz3Qsg X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of lars@e.0x20.net has no SPF policy when checking 46.251.251.56) smtp.mailfrom=lars@e.0x20.net X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.48 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.05)[ip: (-1.10), ipnet: 46.251.251.0/24(-0.55), asn: 31400(1.42), country: DE(-0.02)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[freebsd.org]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_MEDIUM(0.49)[0.492,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.84)[0.841,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[lme@freebsd.org,lars@e.0x20.net]; FREEMAIL_TO(0.00)[comcast.net]; RCVD_COUNT_ONE(0.00)[1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:31400, ipnet:46.251.251.0/24, country:DE]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[lme@freebsd.org,lars@e.0x20.net]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Apr 2020 19:25:56 -0000 On Fri, Apr 10, 2020 at 03:09:30AM -0400, Mike Remski wrote: > On Thursday, April 9, 2020 5:39:45 PM EDT, Rick Macklem wrote: > > Ed Maste wrote: > > > Jim Salter has an article in Ars Technica discussing his experience > > > with FreeBSD 12.1 as a desktop: > > > https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/04/not-actually-linux-distro-review-freebsd-12-1-release/ > > > > > > There are some points in there that might involve misunderstanding, > > > but there are also a number of real issues raised about the experience ... > > Since this is a public mailing list, I'll repost here... > > > > One thought here that I'll throw out (I have no idea if others have suggested > > this before)… > > What about creating a separate release for desktops/laptops that installs > > X Windows etc from a simple installer "out of the box"? > > --> To keep it simple, don't try to support all hardware, just stuff that is widely > > available and already well supported by the drivers in FreeBSD. > > Obviously amd64 only plus a few widely available display chip sets that work > > well, etc and so on... > > > > If it doesn't support the hardware someone has, then they can go the regular > > release/install route. (It would be nice to maintain an up to date list of what > > hardware it supports, but it might be easier to just have it start up live CD > > style and then see if the hardware it needs is there. > > --> Sorry, can't do this display chipset to that sound chip or... > > > > Just an idea, rick > > ps: I am not volunteering to help do this. I run FreeBSD on laptop/desktop > > systems, but bare bones. No X Windows... > > Something like what old PCBSD did? How about FuryBSD as a starting point? Joe Maloney is layering either XFCE or KDE > (2 different ISO/install media) on top of a FreeBSD install, so out of the box, the install gives you FreeBSD with > either XFCE or KDE. > > Disclaimer: I've been using FreeBSD with X as a daily driver for a long time and honestly never found it that > difficult to set up. Hardest was when everything started to need the drm-kmod bits, but once I understood what I > needed to do, it's not been an issue. There's also NomadBSD[1] which comes with a pre-configured Openbox desktop, Firefox and other GUI programs and sensible defaults. It's a bootable live USB system but there's also a installer included. [1] https://NomadBSD.org/