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Date:      Wed, 14 Nov 2012 05:48:48 +0100
From:      Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de>
To:        "Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC" <chad@shire.net>
Cc:        FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org>
Subject:   Re: well, try here first...
Message-ID:  <20121114054848.3a35510f.freebsd@edvax.de>
In-Reply-To: <FE82910B-C8C7-4DA3-A110-21E07177BD81@shire.net>
References:  <20121113052159.GA31404@ethic.thought.org> <20121113063952.5c9bfaa2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20121113075721.GB3359@ethic.thought.org> <20121113151033.1d03bf13@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121113091255.070097f6.freebsd@edvax.de> <20121113190006.GC2570@ethic.thought.org> <20121114044748.7582a006@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121114010738.GA16091@ethic.thought.org> <20121114082600.48d0f681@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121114035814.572a5f7e.freebsd@edvax.de> <FE82910B-C8C7-4DA3-A110-21E07177BD81@shire.net>

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On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:20:51 -0700, Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC wrote:
>=20
> On Nov 13, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Polytropon wrote:
> >=20
> > Ouch.
> >=20
> > Unlike in English, the comma in German is an important symbol
> > in grammar. It brings structure to sentences. In English, there
> > is the "word order" that achieves this goal, and a comma is
> > mostly optional or "left to preferences". In German, there are
> > rules where to place a comma, and where not to. Those rules
> > are relatively easy to understand, and luckily they do not
> > leave much space for individual preferences. :-)
> >=20
> > In the above example,
> >=20
> > 	Playboy, alles was Maennern Spass macht
> >=20
> > or better using a hyphen
> >=20
> > 	Playboy - alles was Maennern Spass macht
> >=20
> > would have been correct, as it's shown on the current web page
> > in a correct manner.
>=20
> To be fair, a lot of the same rules exist for English.  The comma
> is not optional or left to preferences in English, either.  There
> are definite rules and it brings structure.=20

That matches what I've learned in school, but it doesn't match
realitiy anymore. :-)

A famous thing is "comma in lists": Unlike German, where "and"
substitutes a comma, in English it seems to be valid to put a
comma infront of "and":

	He bought a glass, a towel, a toothpick, and a nose.

In German, that would be

	Er kaufte ein Glas, ein Handtuch, einen Zahnstocker
	und eine Nase.

There are in fact only two exceptions of "comma prior to 'and'"
in German. But I don't want to start a school lesson here. The
exceptions are closures and appended main clause. :-)



> Unfortunately, lots of people forget (or don't pay attention to)
> these rules, or, they are casual with them in the casual forms of
> communication, like email.=20

Well, I don't think that the e-mail (as a medium) implies abandoning
rules for written language. Sure, it's "sloppy" very often, but it
should not mangle the languge in a way that the reader has to guess
or to ask for what the writer wanted to express. Proper spelling and
punctuation help a lot, and it should not be "too much struggle" to
get it right: children learn it in the early years in school, so why
should adults forget it?



> (And there are some people who believe that the "text" language
> is English -- OMG, WTF, GR8, B4, LOL, etc --
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_language )

There is also a transition of this written representation to spoken
language - some (young) people actually speaking like SMS.

I don't think that people actually confuse SMS text with the
actual english language. They could have done so almost 100 years
ago with Q groups and abbreviations used in amateur radio telegraphy
(and even in phone mode), ok dr om, hw? :-)

All those "specific language deviations" have their place and
are fully valid. It depends on context. For example, if you got
a business letter with every 3rd word spelled wrong and containing
"SMS and L33T slang", would you take it as a serious information?
Form and content have to match. Nobody would accept a tax form
printed on toilet paper, even if it would be 100% correct in all
content and number details.



> Wie mit deutscher Sprache, man kann (mit englischer Sprache) vieles
> mit der Wortstellung machen.  Und dazu, ist, nat=FCrlich, die richtige
> Anwendung (und Verst=E4ndnis) der Grammatik wichtig.

Sure it is, but it's not about an 1:1 translation. You need to "think
in German" if you want to get it fully right. Baumkuchen... :-)

Your sentence would have been:

In der deutschen Sprache kann man (wie in der englischen Sprache)
vieles mit der Wortstellung machen. Dazu ist nat=FCrlich die richtige
Anwendung (und das Verstaendnis) der Grammatik wichtig.

That is little difference, but it makes a big difference in
readability. Note that the structure of a sentence, aided by
punctuation, is an important part during the reading experience.
Sentences that do not show any structure are hard to read and
to understand, and a missing comma can decide about life or
death easily:

	KILL HIM NOT WAIT UNTIL I ARRIVE

It's either "kill him, not wait until I arrive" or "kill him not,
wait until I arrive", and this translation is not very good as
"nicht" ~=3D "do not" cannot be represented so nicely as in the
german equivalent "sentence".

	Er begann seinen Hut auf dem Kopf zu essen.

is another (famous) example of how a missing comma can confuse
the reader: "He started eating the hat on his head" is the first
interpretation, even if "He started eating, (having) the hat on
his head", and the comma already makes this difference.



> (Like with the German language, one can do a lot with word order
> (in English).   And for that, the proper use and understanding of
> Grammar is important)
>=20
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves

Haha, nice! :-)

But pleese pay atension too, the new englis orfograffy which
make`s every thing easyer to under stand and, more freedems
to mak punctation and les speeling errer's.

Funkzionier't auch in, Deutsch! :-)



> Und "Playboy alles was Maennern Spass macht" ist 100% verst=E4ndlich
> auf deutsch, da es einen richtigen Dativ Kasus gibt, im Gegensatz
> zu englischer Sprache.

It may be 100% understandable, but it's not correct, because it's
not a sentence or a grammatically valid construct. The translation
would have been (quite literally, I admit):

	Playboy everything what men fun makes

Again, a hyphen after the 1st word would it much more readable.



> (and "playboy -- everything that is fun for men" [in German] is
> 100% understandable in German, because there is a real dative case
> in German, unlike in english.)

In _that_ translation, you've used the hyphen correctly (which was
missing in the german version discussed).




PS: I'm admittedly a language nutsee, so I'm allowed to be right,
    at least in my native language. :-)



--=20
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...



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