From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Wed Nov 14 04:48:50 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC6C59F for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 04:48:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mx02.qsc.de (mx02.qsc.de [213.148.130.14]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C6828FC08 for ; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 04:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from r56.edvax.de (port-92-195-8-72.dynamic.qsc.de [92.195.8.72]) by mx02.qsc.de (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE37B277AA; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 05:48:48 +0100 (CET) Received: from r56.edvax.de (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by r56.edvax.de (8.14.5/8.14.5) with SMTP id qAE4mnC4002830; Wed, 14 Nov 2012 05:48:49 +0100 (CET) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 05:48:48 +0100 From: Polytropon To: "Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC" Subject: Re: well, try here first... Message-Id: <20121114054848.3a35510f.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: References: <20121113052159.GA31404@ethic.thought.org> <20121113063952.5c9bfaa2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20121113075721.GB3359@ethic.thought.org> <20121113151033.1d03bf13@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121113091255.070097f6.freebsd@edvax.de> <20121113190006.GC2570@ethic.thought.org> <20121114044748.7582a006@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121114010738.GA16091@ethic.thought.org> <20121114082600.48d0f681@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121114035814.572a5f7e.freebsd@edvax.de> Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list Reply-To: Polytropon List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 04:48:50 -0000 On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 20:20:51 -0700, Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC wrote: >=20 > On Nov 13, 2012, at 7:58 PM, Polytropon wrote: > >=20 > > Ouch. > >=20 > > Unlike in English, the comma in German is an important symbol > > in grammar. It brings structure to sentences. In English, there > > is the "word order" that achieves this goal, and a comma is > > mostly optional or "left to preferences". In German, there are > > rules where to place a comma, and where not to. Those rules > > are relatively easy to understand, and luckily they do not > > leave much space for individual preferences. :-) > >=20 > > In the above example, > >=20 > > Playboy, alles was Maennern Spass macht > >=20 > > or better using a hyphen > >=20 > > Playboy - alles was Maennern Spass macht > >=20 > > would have been correct, as it's shown on the current web page > > in a correct manner. >=20 > To be fair, a lot of the same rules exist for English. The comma > is not optional or left to preferences in English, either. There > are definite rules and it brings structure.=20 That matches what I've learned in school, but it doesn't match realitiy anymore. :-) A famous thing is "comma in lists": Unlike German, where "and" substitutes a comma, in English it seems to be valid to put a comma infront of "and": He bought a glass, a towel, a toothpick, and a nose. In German, that would be Er kaufte ein Glas, ein Handtuch, einen Zahnstocker und eine Nase. There are in fact only two exceptions of "comma prior to 'and'" in German. But I don't want to start a school lesson here. The exceptions are closures and appended main clause. :-) > Unfortunately, lots of people forget (or don't pay attention to) > these rules, or, they are casual with them in the casual forms of > communication, like email.=20 Well, I don't think that the e-mail (as a medium) implies abandoning rules for written language. Sure, it's "sloppy" very often, but it should not mangle the languge in a way that the reader has to guess or to ask for what the writer wanted to express. Proper spelling and punctuation help a lot, and it should not be "too much struggle" to get it right: children learn it in the early years in school, so why should adults forget it? > (And there are some people who believe that the "text" language > is English -- OMG, WTF, GR8, B4, LOL, etc -- > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Text_language ) There is also a transition of this written representation to spoken language - some (young) people actually speaking like SMS. I don't think that people actually confuse SMS text with the actual english language. They could have done so almost 100 years ago with Q groups and abbreviations used in amateur radio telegraphy (and even in phone mode), ok dr om, hw? :-) All those "specific language deviations" have their place and are fully valid. It depends on context. For example, if you got a business letter with every 3rd word spelled wrong and containing "SMS and L33T slang", would you take it as a serious information? Form and content have to match. Nobody would accept a tax form printed on toilet paper, even if it would be 100% correct in all content and number details. > Wie mit deutscher Sprache, man kann (mit englischer Sprache) vieles > mit der Wortstellung machen. Und dazu, ist, nat=FCrlich, die richtige > Anwendung (und Verst=E4ndnis) der Grammatik wichtig. Sure it is, but it's not about an 1:1 translation. You need to "think in German" if you want to get it fully right. Baumkuchen... :-) Your sentence would have been: In der deutschen Sprache kann man (wie in der englischen Sprache) vieles mit der Wortstellung machen. Dazu ist nat=FCrlich die richtige Anwendung (und das Verstaendnis) der Grammatik wichtig. That is little difference, but it makes a big difference in readability. Note that the structure of a sentence, aided by punctuation, is an important part during the reading experience. Sentences that do not show any structure are hard to read and to understand, and a missing comma can decide about life or death easily: KILL HIM NOT WAIT UNTIL I ARRIVE It's either "kill him, not wait until I arrive" or "kill him not, wait until I arrive", and this translation is not very good as "nicht" ~=3D "do not" cannot be represented so nicely as in the german equivalent "sentence". Er begann seinen Hut auf dem Kopf zu essen. is another (famous) example of how a missing comma can confuse the reader: "He started eating the hat on his head" is the first interpretation, even if "He started eating, (having) the hat on his head", and the comma already makes this difference. > (Like with the German language, one can do a lot with word order > (in English). And for that, the proper use and understanding of > Grammar is important) >=20 > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eats,_Shoots_%26_Leaves Haha, nice! :-) But pleese pay atension too, the new englis orfograffy which make`s every thing easyer to under stand and, more freedems to mak punctation and les speeling errer's. Funkzionier't auch in, Deutsch! :-) > Und "Playboy alles was Maennern Spass macht" ist 100% verst=E4ndlich > auf deutsch, da es einen richtigen Dativ Kasus gibt, im Gegensatz > zu englischer Sprache. It may be 100% understandable, but it's not correct, because it's not a sentence or a grammatically valid construct. The translation would have been (quite literally, I admit): Playboy everything what men fun makes Again, a hyphen after the 1st word would it much more readable. > (and "playboy -- everything that is fun for men" [in German] is > 100% understandable in German, because there is a real dative case > in German, unlike in english.) In _that_ translation, you've used the hyphen correctly (which was missing in the german version discussed). PS: I'm admittedly a language nutsee, so I'm allowed to be right, at least in my native language. :-) --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...