From owner-freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org Wed May 1 23:21:49 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-pkgbase@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBC91580843 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 23:21:49 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ggm@algebras.org) Received: from mail-it1-x141.google.com (mail-it1-x141.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::141]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BEF826AF70 for ; Wed, 1 May 2019 23:21:46 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from ggm@algebras.org) Received: by mail-it1-x141.google.com with SMTP id l10so272132iti.3 for ; Wed, 01 May 2019 16:21:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5WmwH5NkVUI2HIdbMNumu7MIyCRRYcmkr6a8TGMsRjs=; b=C4iGPZnrJqpvqi5rUDPOGh9fvmiuugSLG+2XOkDeO70DbvEwSI85UbStp6SOmvJr2g t/cjrwUVjMVLJeeZ3eeXev0h/4IBTGKaZgpSk8Fq273j+CYS+R/ksAVfJQeFvhoXlv4x bL0/bgkeCEooiVd2DVB3ecK+5Iij4r/45xrnhd0UlKQpMmRzWUKnCBRj7nV5DNrKQujA 5M3IYgQrifNgbs/eHCFwIIMbKie1SFfscrFShVK7CYWfgpjfqtOGZCWeP/aPN3NZD87A 65JN5E1WaI4KcrDXx8CtbL4uVgPtAexxetSq+0VqxpA9uXfErjAuAAQ5Qlh101nEEj0M ZV9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5WmwH5NkVUI2HIdbMNumu7MIyCRRYcmkr6a8TGMsRjs=; b=aUudBTzjVJuR8KQu8xcJOpwCYj3wqjs6eBMu8a1CstXPFcQzpxjCmCdvqgO5NGj9Bc Q13PNQtYpRDlve6NzV7kSVOAj21Zd2OvcMZUOLkldeSklqZmlOrbKKhT/R88vQQ27HZ5 FhBlkKWjAaCmaZ68lvw9N0fF3sj8GSr/b5po+5GafnwrfUH+srws6go28yWwKD6XSm4Z ptFB31ffMqCs/67yomWraa8m1IOJlsjWvJ7HS3YDpZ9sxqIG4g1qGLhWCwR2Jzl5v8qm C1iLanK3kIh3LJcySs7Vvndz/VSl3Xr01SZu0Vlgg3pFaWANPu8OTYW8gigHbMuzxVRR rj3w== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAXaopHNhbkMiv9xiyTJl5cEXNzkEUkAuNCxJi3qhk2Z3jJVPm+7 K9Ucn6hcTUGZE4labAyKiac1+/iXXnFZWAqQ6SCYyQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqwiBOkB8a9fekOEhV9VM6R4WRvjf65VvbBEdpZc6dh33OISvmJanCg5eCDzD1hP6K2+8xbvaSrKGdeHWNPqjbs= X-Received: by 2002:a02:c619:: with SMTP id i25mr245071jan.141.1556752905936; Wed, 01 May 2019 16:21:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <201905010356.x413uUnV068470@slippy.cwsent.com> <56b15cc3-4605-f693-4ad6-188ea865820d@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: <56b15cc3-4605-f693-4ad6-188ea865820d@quip.cz> From: George Michaelson Date: Thu, 2 May 2019 09:21:34 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: CFT: FreeBSD Package Base To: FreeBSD Stable Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org, FreeBSD Current , freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org, freebsd-pkg@freebsd.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: BEF826AF70 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=C4iGPZnr; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of ggm@algebras.org designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::141 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=ggm@algebras.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.30 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[algebras.org]; RCPT_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[6]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM,ALT2.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM,ASPMX4.GOOGLEMAIL.COM,ALT1.ASPMX.L.GOOGLE.COM,ASPMX2.GOOGLEMAIL.COM,ASPMX3.GOOGLEMAIL.COM,ASPMX5.GOOGLEMAIL.COM]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[1.4.1.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.96)[-0.964,0]; IP_SCORE(-0.82)[ip: (1.37), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-3.19), asn: 15169(-2.25), country: US(-0.06)]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-pkgbase@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Packaging the FreeBSD base system." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 May 2019 23:21:49 -0000 The current state of this looks logical: its the bare minimum to represent the .tgz which we recognized from install menu choices, which minimises any real SAT solver dependency load, because these are not cross-dependant in any strong sense. The goal surely would be to prove this works and test. Then, we can move to the state I think I want, and I presume by extension everyone else wants: Sets which are small enough they expose risk of cross dependency, but once a SAT solver reconciles them, you have ONLY the minimum needed to do your job. So a "tiny" FreeBSD could be back under 4MB (hypothetically) because it was /rescue and the kernel, and if you needed /usr/share you loaded a pkg. -G On Wed, May 1, 2019 at 7:33 PM Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> wrote: > > Cy Schubert wrote on 2019/05/01 05:56: > > In message <292eadc6-3662-ec43-1175-53fc252487bd@quip.cz>, Miroslav > > Lachman wri > > tes: > >> David Chisnall wrote on 2019/04/30 10:22: > >>> On 29/04/2019 21:12, Joe Maloney wrote: > >>>> With CFT version you chose to build, and package individual componen= ts > >>>> such as sendmail with a port option.=C3=82 That does entirely solve= the > >>>> problem of being able to reinstall sendmail after the fact without a > >>>> rebuild of the userland (base) port but perhaps base flavors could > >>>> solve that problem assuming flavors could extend beyond python. > >>> > >>> This sounds very much like local optimisation. It's now easy to creat= e a > >>> custom base image.=C3=82 Great.=C3=82 But how do I express dependen= cies in ports > >>> on a specific base configuration? This is easy if I depend on a speci= fic > >>> base package, but how does this work in your model?=C3=82 For exampl= e, if I > >>> have a package that depends on a library that is an optional part of = the > >>> base system, how do I express that pkg needs to either refuse to inst= all > >>> it, or install a userland pkg that includes that library in place of = my > >>> existing version as part of the install process? > >>> > >>> More importantly for the container use case, if I want to take a > >>> completely empty jail and do pkg ins nginx (for example), what does t= he > >>> maintainer of the nginx port need to do to express the minimum set of > >>> the base system that needs to be installed to allow nginx to work? > >>> > >>> One of the goals for the pkg base concept was to allow this kind of u= se > >>> case, easily creating a minimal environment required to run a single > >>> service. With a monolithic base package set, you're going to need som= e > >>> mechanism other than packages to express the specific base subset > >>> package that you need and I think that you need to justify why this > >>> mechanism is better than using small individual packages. > >> > >> Will it not be maintainer's nightmare to take care of all the > >> dependencies on the base packages for each port we have in the ports t= ree? > > > > No more than it is today. Remember, people have been doing this sort of > > thing for decades. If the folks at Red Hat, Oracle (formerly Sun), and > > IBM can do it, I'm sure we can too. The dependency lists will be > > longer. We may require dependency lists that allow the choice of one of > > many prereqs or coreqs. > > They are experts and they are paid for their work. I am not. I am > maintaining a few packages and the reality is I don't know what they > need in base. Till these days I don't care about this kind of > dependency. I am not system developer or programmer and I think there > are more than just me who see this as a kind of problem. > So in this case, pkg base gives me nothing but more work on those package= s. > > Miroslav Lachman > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-stable@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-stable > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-stable-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"