From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Tue Mar 29 20:07:03 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85313106566B for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:07:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from m.e.sanliturk@gmail.com) Received: from mail-qw0-f54.google.com (mail-qw0-f54.google.com [209.85.216.54]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 314668FC0C for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:07:02 +0000 (UTC) Received: by qwc9 with SMTP id 9so458577qwc.13 for ; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=ormelKV9gP1Q3YOQAXcdQBFdu/OK8U1rl7XM84nWgmE=; b=NdQ4oaiYA9ANIRRw/ug5cQkOGBwZNWWFbVCtsxPiTMxzzSHrc9/xoGlbvnh1/uGs5Y Wm1rIk3b1tE7eR3vmhZApR5cw5Y5DnwXSszpMV0Jv+LiBOesQghbRfbsBusI+GIgXj4/ gHzdG3FxPY7I7bM82EFDkr4kv4yRBIFPKiKQ8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; b=Hhu6dRVeb7yFeyqkQsXxXp/MfKbsknnYC4Md3nGK/O5EBLpSQNTj/fV3NoW08Qy8jF X51XUWSGDfYu77FguYM6x3JLf1ouTdUPSdVoFONIDqVAXWr7Jblni/LimjDODeMxAty9 qbbyHYvOX3S8oLsGpQ3howd12j7BqMUGaeEoM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.224.9.197 with SMTP id m5mr251905qam.367.1301429222250; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.67.21 with HTTP; Tue, 29 Mar 2011 13:07:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110329013223.ddca7453.jhsu802701@jasonhsu.com> Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 16:07:02 -0400 Message-ID: From: Mehmet Erol Sanliturk To: Paul Schmehl Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.5 Cc: Jason Hsu , freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Best way to switch from Linux to BSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2011 20:07:03 -0000 On Tue, Mar 29, 2011 at 12:43 PM, Paul Schmehl wr= ote: > --On March 29, 2011 1:32:23 AM -0400 Jason Hsu > wrote: > > ... > >> 4. What are the Linux Mint and Puppy Linux of the BSD universe? I >> consider these two distros to set the standard in the Linux universe, >> because they're so user-friendly. These are the distros I've set out to >> compete against in developing Swift Linux. >> > > FreeBSD is first and foremost a server OS. Desktop support is lacking wh= en > compared to the other major OSes (Windows, Mac and Linux). You can make = it > work, if you want to, but that's not what its primary function is. > > If you want a user friendly desktop OS, FreeBSD is probably not your best > choice. > > -- > Paul Schmehl, Senior Infosec Analyst > As if it wasn't already obvious, my opinions > are my own and not those of my employer. > Business of an operating system is to manage the resources of the computer hardware and execute suitably written user programs whatever the subjects o= f those programs are . Therefore distinguishing between =C2=A8Server Operating System=C2=A8 and = =C2=A8Desktop Operating System=C2=A8 is an artificial discrimination which these may be attributed to configuration parameters . If a so-called =C2=A8operating system=C2=A8 lacks any capability to manage = either of these parts ( hardware and software ) , it is my opinion that =C2=A8operati= ng system=C2=A8 is not a proper name for it . When we consider the FreeBSD from point of view of operating systems , it i= s a wonderful operating system . Then what is the trouble which is not widely adopted for desktop usage and actually by super computers ? In my opinion , it is the default installation configuration . The attitude for default configuration seems to make it restrictive against easy use as much as possible . The wrong point is ( that design decision ) that make it unusable by the inexperienced or first time users . During its design of user interface the above fact is not taken into consideration very much ( with respect to my opinion ) . Please do NOT take my ideas against the FreeBSD developers . These ideas ar= e expressed just to illuminate difficulties and discuss possible remedies . When a point is difficult for a computer engineer with more than forty year= s of computing experience , please think its level of difficulty . During install , it is possible to ask whether that computer will be used b= y multiple users or a single user which this fact is asked explicitly BUT not utilized sufficiently : Questions and answers by the installer : Will be NSF server ? NO . Will be NSF client ? NO . Will be FTP server ? NO . Will be GATEWAY ? NO . etc. All the information about whether the computer will be used as a server or = a desktop computer is given by the above answers . Therefore , it is VERY EAS= Y to select installed configuration files with respect to the answers to the above questions : For the server : Very restrictive settings , because server administrators need high level of security , For the single user : Very permissive settings for the user land , because single users need easy usage , but very restrictive settings for the root related parts to prevent malicious software invasion . The point is very clear : The computer is belong to me : I can crash it , I can destroy it , I can throw it to fire , and the worst case , I can insert another operating system installer and completely erase FreeBSD on it , BUT I can NOT auto mount a USB stick ( which is possible to do it since 1998 in Windows ) , I can NOT auto mount a DVD/CD ( which is possible , perhaps it started with first Windows in 1995 ) , although such operations are also possible in FreeBSD always . Then , it is not possible to understand why FreeBSD is isolating itself fro= m society . To see the amount of adoption , please consider the following web site ( in my opinion even it is not necessary to look elsewhere for level of adoption because from Central Limit Theorem of Statistics , we can conclude that a sample size of 500 is a complete representative of whole universe ) : http://www.top500.org/ At the right top of its page , there is a Statistics part . >From its ( Statistics Type ) part select ( Operating System Family ) and click Generate : http://www.top500.org/stats/list/36/osf For 11/2011 among top 500 super computers : Linux 459 Windows 5 Unix 19 BSD based 1 : OpenSolaris Mixed 16 . >From its ( Statistics Type ) part select ( Processor Family ) and click Generate : http://www.top500.org/stats/list/36/procfam Power 40 Nec 1 Sparc 1 Intel IA-64 5 : Itanium Intel EMT64T 392 : amd64 in FreeBSD AMD x86_64 57 : amd64 in FreeBSD Intel Core 1 : i386 or amd64 in FreeBSD Others 2 I am NOT against Linux or any other operating system , but my concern is when a very high technology is available in FreeBSD , why it is NOT used extensively which it is sure that it is useful for society . Then , what may be the solutions : Instead of pursuing a solid rock Handbook , please include a facility on each page to get opinions , questions of users about information given in that page , and link these responses to TODO pages , to track problems . These opinions or questions will be more informal with respect to problem reports . When the SVN is inspected , in some directories there are man pages along with the corresponding programs . My impression is that each program of the operating system does not have such pairs . For the missing pairs , move man pages into the respective directories and always update man pages when the respective programs are updated to keep man pages as synchronized . Some man pages are really very cryptic which is not possible to understand them . In the ( man page ) display pages of the FreeBSD web site , allow user opinions and questions to be entered and link these to man page TODO lists . In the same way , distribute all of the respective Handbook pages into program directories , and update them with the programs along with man page= s . Some Handbook pages may be directly generated form man pages by combining the Handbook page and the man page . This will reduce maintenance requirements . The quality of the Handbook is very high ( and very good ) . This makes it difficult to maintain . Allow simple tutorial pages to be linked and included into Handbook to supply application case studies , etc. At present , these pages are scattered all over the internet and many of them are related to older versions which they are useful for users of these older versions , but new versions do not have respective tutorials . A new user will obviously start from the latest release without having sufficiently available tutorials . The Handbook is NOT a sufficiently detailed tutorial book which its purpos= e is NOT to be such a detailed tutorial book . It is necessary to enrich it b= y supplying tutorial page links to its pages which these pages should be stored into FreeBSD servers to protect them from frequent disappearing or modification cases of web sites . Allow people to submit plain text files for possible inclusion into Handboo= k to be used by other ( developers or committers ) to utilize as starting parts as to be formatted . Every possible contributor may not know SGML sufficiently well . During installation distinguish between server related settings and single user related settings , and select installed configuration files with respect to this structure . It is very obvious that any solution attempt requires human time and monetary allocations . There is a problem : egg from chicken , chicken from egg . A few months ago , www.wikipedia.org collected more than 15 million dollars by a contribution help campaign with participants reaching to approximately 2 million ( if I remember correctly ) persons with average contribution level around 10 dollars . Last year , their need was around 7 million dollars . If it is possible , such campaigns may be arranged yearly by the FreeBSD Foundation to cover development costs . I believe in that FreeBSD is used mainly in servers and owners of these servers will participate such campaigns because outcome will be directly usable by them . The single user persons need a very easily usable highly secure operating systems , therefore they also wish to support the FreeBSD development because their contributions will return to themselves as more high quality operating system . Thank you very much with my best wishes for FreeBSD developers and its user= s ( with the rest of humanity ) . Mehmet Erol Sanliturk