From owner-freebsd-security@freebsd.org Thu Mar 7 03:16:52 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-security@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32BB2150AE04 for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2019 03:16:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-no.shaw.ca (smtp-out-no.shaw.ca [64.59.134.12]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DAFC98919F for ; Thu, 7 Mar 2019 03:16:50 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id 1jWRhmzifdhgh1jWThbAsC; Wed, 06 Mar 2019 20:16:42 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=R9B95uZX c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=NTGMnVQrEZIA:10 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=BhAKXUnTU5Jq7OcrMx0A:9 a=wG5ukLIoH5QvQjq8:21 a=72B2fZOGDsULd8qa:21 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (slippy8 [10.2.2.6]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B2FB204B; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 19:16:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from slippy.cwsent.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTP id x273GJVd098380; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 19:16:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from slippy (cy@localhost) by slippy.cwsent.com (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) with ESMTP id x273GJ6k098377; Wed, 6 Mar 2019 19:16:19 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com) Message-Id: <201903070316.x273GJ6k098377@slippy.cwsent.com> X-Authentication-Warning: slippy.cwsent.com: cy owned process doing -bs X-Mailer: exmh version 2.8.0 04/21/2012 with nmh-1.7.1 Reply-to: Cy Schubert From: Cy Schubert X-os: FreeBSD X-Sender: cy@cwsent.com X-URL: http://www.cschubert.com/ To: Garrett Wollman cc: Cy Schubert , FreeBSD-security@freebsd.org Subject: Re: Spoiler Alert In-Reply-To: Message from Garrett Wollman of "Wed, 06 Mar 2019 21:25:57 -0500." <23680.33077.883594.613635@hergotha.csail.mit.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 19:16:19 -0800 X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfEEOquakQlBJEfN+uER24MMod2dg3MPunMxP5ILZo+ElqVWUTXDhCdzZCjB626uROh74Yef6f4wPFJEiH1BCvN5Txc+0MJC8XqCiLGHse1LGehoEmQs7 AwacNzZ48VbBSda0piooxo3bKx6Q82b+tsekxXrrzS4gT1DrO/WaewrYuwRRhEB7PTOlRxlWPzmKbyoXnOM1yli57283MGjY/ciD8Dsagfm2VLrZyhgPn+1n X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: DAFC98919F X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.59 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_FIVE(0.00)[5]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[Cy.Schubert@cschubert.com]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; IP_SCORE(-2.19)[ip: (-5.98), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.76), asn: 6327(-2.11), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; HAS_XAW(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.69)[-0.692,0]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[12.134.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1] X-BeenThere: freebsd-security@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: "Security issues \[members-only posting\]" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2019 03:16:52 -0000 In message <23680.33077.883594.613635@hergotha.csail.mit.edu>, Garrett Wollman writes: > < > said: > > > In message <2c3f9748-a17f-3778-9eaa-99087f33d0e3@FreeBSD.org>, Lev > > Serebryakov > > writes: > >> On 05.03.2019 22:55, Shawn Webb wrote: > >> > >> >> This came over my phone's news feed. Another example that Colin Perciv= > >> al was right when he wrote his paper on exploiting cache for fun and prof= > >> it many years ago. > >> >=20 > >> > Weird machines are weird. > >> Not-weird machines are dead-slow :-( > > > Picking a random email in this thread to reply. > > > The problem is that there are so many of these Spectre class of > > exploits that we collectively roll our eyes. Yet another one is not > > news any more. > > And that's likely the way it's going to be, absent some major new > discovery or a complete revolution in the way we program computers > (which probably puts FreeBSD out of a job). Probably but likely not before I or maybe you retire. But sadly, we're becoming accustomed to the brokenness of the situation. At $JOB people who would normally be alarmed by this are shrugging it off as the new normal. > > I actually attended a very interesting talk by John Hennessey today in > which he discussed (at a very high level) one idea for where this > goes, and it's very definitely in the mode of completely different > programming models combined with completely different hardware > designs. One big part of this is that more compute hardware is going > the way of GPUs, where the only supported interface is provided by a > blob of proprietary software so the hardware vendor is much more free > to change the implementation without maintaining hardware-level (or > even ISA-level) compatibility. And a lot more hardware explicit > fetch/store to different levels of the memory hierarchy. Kind of like the Cray's of old front ended by an IBM manframe or more probably like the MASPAR (a massively parallel processor front ended by a Tru64 box where I once worked). -- Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www.FreeBSD.org The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few.