From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Wed Jul 15 06:47:03 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D96BB35BD1D for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 06:47:03 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from mout.kundenserver.de (mout.kundenserver.de [212.227.17.13]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange ECDHE (P-256) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "mout.kundenserver.de", Issuer "TeleSec ServerPass Class 2 CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4B67GZ4lppz4ZHT for ; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 06:47:02 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from freebsd@edvax.de) Received: from r56.edvax.de ([178.5.237.238]) by mrelayeu.kundenserver.de (mreue109 [212.227.15.183]) with ESMTPA (Nemesis) id 1MxUfn-1kopQy3hLl-00xvfB; Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:54 +0200 Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 08:46:52 +0200 From: Polytropon To: Dale Scott Cc: Patryk Cisek , freebsd-questions Subject: Re: Trying to install FreeBSD 12.1 on Librem laptop Message-Id: <20200715084652.247045f1.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <907846703.73107413.1594772276937.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <90d59a0b-4399-ccd7-5c6e-af6463ba43ad@holgerdanske.com> <11544df2-e8e4-d02c-ce64-9ffbf7ff792e@cisek.email> <6155f5a2-4f0a-1828-481a-e1b6090816a0@cisek.email> <907846703.73107413.1594772276937.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Reply-To: Polytropon Organization: EDVAX X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Provags-ID: V03:K1:brjcmlP58btIQp/sBDhuDIvKYhu4TCLFrafaY1ssq43d6696erK gXnH9vBX2GsTbtfhagvezKwffEkLtOx0AD30UMHfSlQJWWfZY89BWtz8w7WYIrOEVRJLSnh +fYnW+GPdrW8nOGeIp8AyCMM2nMQ6nh6heHt2wibhq1idxtc0pcpaldj0+6nwVsDkNLQXrW EdzwISPGalQWW2VdIPlSg== X-Spam-Flag: NO X-UI-Out-Filterresults: notjunk:1;V03:K0:e5Mlmkk+rsY=:BupzfTXd/d06lJyNUUVaT/ WnsEJ5kxOFbz1IRuJn804coWtsq4jRiF13UJJTguY7uWiN99UlyzvXBW++gblMfoZjGK83TTG pJF7NbycdSp9IWGtQ9FAICEVKbyZ7flaueNWIE9xDC55D5QQYoKmHRVRN75QBQpdBsTsMzunp CrMaF9jZh/Zn8zd9aol8YMmOon77MILqRERnfqWKaTpy8zeF0g2StSX1ybS/o6txjt4z2anTt QTR1CScchzg9MuH/dr8P4uyAzcSHm4t1owNIPuNXA6zngVwKgjEFvGa6Mr7dPG2tjA/Fi4ZTD vSgWr7opTLY/zJ6U/08V+OeysBFkg2GdmaRfM3kJ1mOLVS+aC2s/BWP4h1deAbFxH+31v3mFe xhR9KflP7pX5toQegAe8oHDHZr7QBJKwRsx2s1pNKVWl9Ilfqntzad9SXrj+FKMUixau2dC2n 1F+6X7Sth+HosOWbVf41oIbOsVaOf17TgGnfZYTDkyXaG4ClGKt9xIlsOWpr9hTx9j0G5eVpY 3eronf0IaEetOQx+sAaKwWsCxv8QV1+cxMHi8oxsQv2Qesw68wSnhyceypb4xnyJi6RvoLmbu 8vrijrvPq15DxkWJN8ejops0vbx/LmSxu08l1gPNJKEHVdZa81YwGI8pKkJK6hKKBNToysk3Y KgnE8b13/XOrrde1riR7lmQl6a9aZh7o6HHtQd+YMJC21m+9MtvfsbhqP16VzYj1P/UcdPBf8 6ih0YvVAvjEH4+1RxQT1Y7wZR0zTGmV5hpwQNOa6WMdAQ7+zx4+Qks0CY3TTioGK5KtfYHJ/3 IMV69K/rYbq1sGG4fCVcPJHSvQmafuaOhAuwlrO8opyBPaDRNwqJyCbNI+agE35F+VRSDpu X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4B67GZ4lppz4ZHT X-Spamd-Bar: ++ Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of freebsd@edvax.de has no SPF policy when checking 212.227.17.13) smtp.mailfrom=freebsd@edvax.de X-Spamd-Result: default: False [2.69 / 15.00]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[freebsd@edvax.de]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; MV_CASE(0.50)[]; HAS_ORG_HEADER(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.32)[-0.322]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[178.5.237.238:received]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:8560, ipnet:212.227.0.0/16, country:DE]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.33)[-0.325]; REPLYTO_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[edvax.de]; AUTH_NA(1.00)[]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_SPAM_LONG(0.94)[0.942]; MID_CONTAINS_FROM(1.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[no SPF record]; RWL_MAILSPIKE_POSSIBLE(0.00)[212.227.17.13:from]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 06:47:03 -0000 On Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:17:56 -0600 (MDT), Dale Scott wrote: > At the risk of offending some of my colleagues, I would suggest > if your primary goal is simply a stable desktop environment, > with a low learning curve and even lower maintenance requirements, > you may be better served by an OS which has a stated goal to > provide a superior desktop experience (e.g. Windows, OS X and > some Linux distributions). This is a point where I sadly _have_ to disagree. First of all, FreeBSD with a Gnome-2-era-like desktop like Mate or Cinnamon, accompanied with useful applications (Firefox, Thunderbird, LibreOffice, VLC etc.) makes an excellent desktop that fulfills all requirements you've listed. Furthermore, yes, Linux is more advanced in this particular space, because it has reached a point where the GUI integrates very well with the underlying OS components, something that FreeBSD hasn't achieved natively yet. It's worth mentioning that TrueOS (ex PC-BSD) did that many years ago, it was KDE-based. I don't see your statement as offending, just disagreement-worthy. :-) > While there have been (and still are) projects aimed at superior > desktop environments on FreeBSD, there are simply too few users > for such a system for the effort required to do a good job. While > it is certainly technically possible to install software on a > FreeBSD-based system to create "the best" desktop possible, it > is also possible you will spend more time configuring and > maintaining it, and less time accomplishing "real" work with > the system. It all depends on your goals though. That is my impression primarily for "Windows"-based systems: Users need to manually search and install software, tweak the UI, guess (!) and explore too many things, and in case something doesn't work, "Oops!" is the only debugging information they can provide, and they require help for many things that maybe 10 or 20 years ago were considered "simple user tasks" they could've performed on their own. Simply because there is no one-size-fits-all eggl-laying wool- milk-sow, no matter what desktop solution or OS you mention, there will always be users who cannot work with what is presented to them out of the box. The ability to change things (!) and the discoverability and easyness of how this happens is the important point. This is where Linux desktops definitely are the best ones, and it doesn't matter if you mention a Gnome 3 based Ubuntu or a Xfce/Lxde/KDE-based distribution. > I develop and host web-based applications and services on FreeBSD, > but the servers are headless and my interaction with them (other > than the web apps) is a terminal window and command shell. My > "daily drivers" are either Windows or Linux Mint. Maybe if I was > a sysadmin or site reliability engineer using FreeBSD, or if I > was developing software to run specifically on FreeBSD, and if > I interacted less with business people and more with hardcore > IS/IT people, then I might switch my desktop environment to > FreeBSD and benefit from consolidated experiences and knowledge. My personal systems running FreeBSD primarily use WindowMaker (no desktop environment, just a window manager), or IceWM + wbar. My parents are using FreeBSD for many years now without problems, using the Mate desktop (after the end of Gnome 2). Everything here_just works_, I cannot say anything better; no problems, no questions, all hardware is supported, everything just jumped into its place, and there is no problem with "too steep learning curve" or "I don't know how to do this." Actually, they did not have to "learn FreeBSD" at all. Maybe I am just a very strange person: I've been using FreeBSD as a desktop system since version 4.0, with environments like KDE, Gnome 2, XFCE and Xfce (capitalization indicates version), Mate, Cinnamon, and I never ran into problems people tend to attribute to FreeBSD (as the underlying operating system), so definitely don't take my very individual statements as "truth for everyone and everything". :-) THat being said, the choice of the right tool, as always, just depends on the goal you want to achieve. FreeBSD _might_ be such a tool, but it depends. As always. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...