From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 10 18:38:20 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 546B31EF791 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:38:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (troutmask.apl.washington.edu [128.95.76.21]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "troutmask", Issuer "troutmask" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47vWvb31Qdz3RDY; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:38:19 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: from troutmask.apl.washington.edu (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPS id 00AIcG7n007200 (version=TLSv1.3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 10 Jan 2020 10:38:17 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu) Received: (from sgk@localhost) by troutmask.apl.washington.edu (8.15.2/8.15.2/Submit) id 00AIcGh1007199; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 10:38:16 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sgk) Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 10:38:16 -0800 From: Steve Kargl To: Warner Losh Cc: Josh Paetzel , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: open-vm-tools in base Message-ID: <20200110183816.GA6857@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Reply-To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu References: <46480be7-b1a1-4da8-97ea-c4b97b0b997c@www.fastmail.com> <20200110172541.GA6529@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.12.2 (2019-09-21) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47vWvb31Qdz3RDY X-Spamd-Bar: -- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=none; dmarc=fail reason="No valid SPF, No valid DKIM" header.from=washington.edu (policy=none); spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu has no SPF policy when checking 128.95.76.21) smtp.mailfrom=sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-2.23 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; DMARC_POLICY_SOFTFAIL(0.10)[washington.edu : No valid SPF, No valid DKIM,none]; HAS_REPLYTO(0.00)[sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-0.23)[ip: (0.05), ipnet: 128.95.0.0/16(-0.25), asn: 73(-0.89), country: US(-0.05)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; REPLYTO_ADDR_EQ_FROM(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.997,0]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-0.999,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; ASN(0.00)[asn:73, ipnet:128.95.0.0/16, country:US]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:38:20 -0000 On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 10:44:38AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 10:26 AM Steve Kargl < > sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 09:55:23AM -0600, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > > > > > There is some precedent for this. Driver(s?) that were once a > > > part of the tools have been moved to base already. The VMXNET3 > > > driver is an example of this. > > > > > > > There is also precedent for removing a working driver from > > base and putting it into ports. See drm2. > > > > Not the best example to cite as there's been a lot of bumps with that and > the future distribution model is unclear to me. > Oddly enough I disagree. :-) Does the problems for open-vm-tools occur in freebsd-stable, where the kernel ABI should be stable? Freebsd-current is the development tree, and kernel changes might break 3rd party software. drm2 is a perfect example. In-base drm2 was working just fine and kept up-to-date with kernel changes when it was attached to the build. This seems to be what Josh wants for open-vm-tools. Once drm2 was detached from the build it was ocassionally broken, and someone (often times me) would find and report the breakage. If open-vm-tools is added to base, and then someone adds emulators/open-vm-tools-devel which supercedes in-base open-vm-tool, we're back to the in-base drm2 situation. Finally, open-vm-tools is used by what percentage of FreeBSD users? 1%? 5%? 50%? -- Steve