From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Jan 12 08:11:48 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BED2916A41F; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:11:48 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jrhett@mail.meer.net) Received: from outbound0.sv.meer.net (outbound0.sv.meer.net [205.217.152.13]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FB6B43D68; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:11:43 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jrhett@mail.meer.net) Received: from mail.meer.net (mail.meer.net [209.157.152.14]) by outbound0.sv.meer.net (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id k0C8Aa1v016763; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:11:42 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhett@mail.meer.net) Received: from mail.meer.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.meer.net (8.13.3/8.13.3/meer) with ESMTP id k0C88u9B013251; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:08:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhett@mail.meer.net) Received: (from jrhett@localhost) by mail.meer.net (8.13.3/8.13.3) id k0C88uOa013250; Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:08:56 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from jrhett) Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 00:08:56 -0800 From: Jo Rhett To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Message-ID: <20060112080856.GI84964@svcolo.com> Mail-Followup-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org, current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Organization: svcolo.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.9i Cc: current@freebsd.org Subject: SUMMARY: Fast releases demand binary updates.. X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:11:48 -0000 FreeBSD-current: please accept this posting to close off the thread that your list saw half of. I'm going to kill this topic. Results of my trolling to see if we could get any committer interest in this topic are: 17 enterprises e-mailing me privately to agree that it sucks, but that they doubt it will ever change. Some notes about how we handle certain situations today exchanged. 2 e-mails from people working at the bsdupdates project. I explain again to them why we can't run GENERIC, and they agree that without core operation system support there's no easy way to handle this. 3 e-mails from people who've been burned trying to raise this topic before, suggesting that I run and hide after raising an issue like this. They don't believe it will happen. 12 or so honest queries on the mailing list about why "make buildworld" or the freebsd-update mechanism doesn't work for me. Which I try to answer in detail, even when the questioner was insulting me. 7 or so suggestions on the mailing list that I deliver a working solution before asking for consensus. 16-something people telling me that I clearly don't understand the problem, and that if I wasn't an idiot I could solve it using this or that. Most of which are tools we are using today, and know the limitations of pretty well. (none of whom actually delivered information about how to improve on this) 20-something people telling me that my shorthand for -core proves that I'm an idiot. It wasn't the topic, and it doesn't change the real question one bit, but it's a great chance for everyone to call me an idiot. 1,215,545 or thereabouts people writing me to call me an idiot, without much justification whatsoever. In short, the situation remains as before. A lot of need, but no solution. A lot of interest, but no belief that it will be accepted into the core operating system. No interest from any of the developers who could make this happen. Without any interest, you can't come up with a starting definition or goals for consensus. Thus there's no point in trying to build a team to do it. Kind of like invading Iraq without a clear objective and a plan. (sorry for the off-topic political reference, but it is apt) For now we'll have to see if Colin can find ways around the problems without the tools he needs to do it right. -- Jo Rhett senior geek SVcolo : Silicon Valley Colocation