From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 10 18:53:07 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15A521EFFEA for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:53:07 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-qt1-x82b.google.com (mail-qt1-x82b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47vXDd6xDyz3xfK for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:53:05 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: by mail-qt1-x82b.google.com with SMTP id t3so2800448qtr.11 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 10:53:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rIp0fIXSHSa07tuXQQrjYS6aI0PMTBy/0JK8HYCafQs=; b=F6T2jMAUhZGvNNVILK88/KBmJFgobJoTK/0O+j5TBYxDPMSkuSLtDGa2kvpq4xI5bh XdsPkaj5vWcwxLgeP2ev7I4XKU3FBBhI15GTZcgTyWcnhgrs3jE+vVIfSrUdVQw/LCy1 n/Y7W2U/R6DgLpSw7wJQru75LMN/i3bppr/rPwnKDIJxSsPBQ3d+Aoh9Tg02lcAuMVul pyPwC2TvivmninnVNlDvBd6hIZpNg0qyZbEkHqh+lEgZqAkE+HSSyPJjIvTgazSG0Ai6 DQb72lFJi/GyrZcbNGonkwISKMlu8obS0PYmc5vWCk8H+1tq96T2EvzezRogyYTHupHy /m/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rIp0fIXSHSa07tuXQQrjYS6aI0PMTBy/0JK8HYCafQs=; b=XrS3Oare/m0A3/cpV88WVQUd/llzCjjDgo9lsgz8OchGngP+PyAmVnQ2wMzCBcDgxO EitT+gv80bzHgOyiW/ojxkSKxtzvlzPRImJAoZRy3mmR+UAQn7ILwTaFI+q5GXO+7ZPM QagVavahff8dnJNAUVY4y1COhl0mTV1ORhQNIeN+FCbsMGZbxsjDuewUlDo+hZmE5P9w qpgzLo/cwRq92RdSD4Ol2bV1RF1xEb+ZycsyIjRkXTAYXe5o2qouqF84cDwkmGuqBxl0 e4akGcRMkIX8Um1mROogDDhd6+Yg3mROaseHpnQJXiCTDSI84quh+78LxTrZduKD83Nu 9O9Q== X-Gm-Message-State: APjAAAULc4ccw3MfkIURBI0rSHX9d9Syae6Zpm8vHVGhHxO9hQPrhewK v17iV7/bMM64Npels5daNUCzQPI+jtzJmx1k0W+4xg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: APXvYqw3+tUwXVYuu0LJDkhJtMixpc0OQi2DJcGj08ny/ezaMfmljc3URwg+7by81wlpVuUg0BD5Zz2Nln8Kl6Dv/ys= X-Received: by 2002:ac8:21ec:: with SMTP id 41mr3807804qtz.242.1578682384679; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 10:53:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <46480be7-b1a1-4da8-97ea-c4b97b0b997c@www.fastmail.com> <20200110172541.GA6529@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20200110183816.GA6857@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> In-Reply-To: <20200110183816.GA6857@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> From: Warner Losh Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 11:52:53 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: open-vm-tools in base To: Steve Kargl Cc: Josh Paetzel , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47vXDd6xDyz3xfK X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com header.s=20150623 header.b=F6T2jMAU; dmarc=none; spf=none (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of wlosh@bsdimp.com has no SPF policy when checking 2607:f8b0:4864:20::82b) smtp.mailfrom=wlosh@bsdimp.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.67 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:s=20150623]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; RCPT_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org]; DMARC_NA(0.00)[bsdimp.com]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[bsdimp-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com:+]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[b.2.8.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.2.0.0.4.6.8.4.0.b.8.f.7.0.6.2.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; FORGED_SENDER(0.30)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; IP_SCORE(-2.67)[ip: (-9.34), ipnet: 2607:f8b0::/32(-2.11), asn: 15169(-1.84), country: US(-0.05)]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; FROM_NEQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[imp@bsdimp.com,wlosh@bsdimp.com]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.29 X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 18:53:07 -0000 On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 11:38 AM Steve Kargl < sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> wrote: > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 10:44:38AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 10:26 AM Steve Kargl < > > sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 09:55:23AM -0600, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > > > > > > > There is some precedent for this. Driver(s?) that were once a > > > > part of the tools have been moved to base already. The VMXNET3 > > > > driver is an example of this. > > > > > > > > > > There is also precedent for removing a working driver from > > > base and putting it into ports. See drm2. > > > > > > > Not the best example to cite as there's been a lot of bumps with that and > > the future distribution model is unclear to me. > > > > Oddly enough I disagree. :-) > You're not on the front lines of fighting the impedance mismatch between package builds, -current changes and ports that depend a bit too much on our internals, either implicitly or explicitly. :) > Does the problems for open-vm-tools occur in freebsd-stable, > where the kernel ABI should be stable? > Except they aren't. virtualbox's kmod have issues as does kms-drm because we have no tools to test our KBI stability, so we encode a lot of internal junk we shouldn't and that causes breakages on the branch that are tricky to even known exist. > Freebsd-current is the development tree, and kernel changes > might break 3rd party software. drm2 is a perfect example. > In-base drm2 was working just fine and kept up-to-date with > kernel changes when it was attached to the build. This seems > to be what Josh wants for open-vm-tools. Once drm2 was detached > from the build it was ocassionally broken, and someone (often > times me) would find and report the breakage. If open-vm-tools > is added to base, and then someone adds emulators/open-vm-tools-devel > which supercedes in-base open-vm-tool, we're back to the in-base drm2 > situation. > The notion is that we'd not do that. It would all be in base. > Finally, open-vm-tools is used by what percentage of FreeBSD users? > 1%? 5%? 50%? > Without real data, it's hard to say. What percentage of people in FreeBSD use the ahd driver these days? I'll bet it's a lot less than would use this. Warner