Date: Wed, 14 Nov 2012 06:47:29 +0100 From: Polytropon <freebsd@edvax.de> To: "Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC" <chad@shire.net> Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List <freebsd-questions@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: well, try here first... Message-ID: <20121114064729.308e0f13.freebsd@edvax.de> In-Reply-To: <DB23A001-292B-49BE-86BE-89523495761F@shire.net> References: <20121113052159.GA31404@ethic.thought.org> <20121113063952.5c9bfaa2.freebsd@edvax.de> <20121113075721.GB3359@ethic.thought.org> <20121113151033.1d03bf13@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121113091255.070097f6.freebsd@edvax.de> <20121113190006.GC2570@ethic.thought.org> <20121114044748.7582a006@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121114010738.GA16091@ethic.thought.org> <20121114082600.48d0f681@X220.ovitrap.com> <20121114035814.572a5f7e.freebsd@edvax.de> <FE82910B-C8C7-4DA3-A110-21E07177BD81@shire.net> <20121114054848.3a35510f.freebsd@edvax.de> <DB23A001-292B-49BE-86BE-89523495761F@shire.net>
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On Tue, 13 Nov 2012 22:27:37 -0700, Chad Leigh Shire.Net LLC wrote: >=20 > On Nov 13, 2012, at 9:48 PM, Polytropon wrote: >=20 > > That matches what I've learned in school, but it doesn't match > > realitiy anymore. :-) > >=20 > > A famous thing is "comma in lists": Unlike German, where "and" > > substitutes a comma, in English it seems to be valid to put a > > comma infront of "and": > >=20 > > He bought a glass, a towel, a toothpick, and a nose. > >=20 > > In German, that would be > >=20 > > Er kaufte ein Glas, ein Handtuch, einen Zahnstocker > > und eine Nase. >=20 >=20 > This is interesting, because the comma before the "and" in a list > is much more understandable, because it is open to less interpretation.=20 This is different to "'and' substitutes a comma", but makes sense. For example, I prefer reading the english documentation of FreeBSD (manpages, handbook, FAQ and articles) over their often sloppily and quite "mechanically" done translations. Good quality in documentation helps to raise the quality of the complete product. > This is where the "eats shoots and leaves" comes in, kind of. > There are similar examples where ambiguity arises from the > lack of a comma before "and" in a list. The comma before > the "and" is traditional English. Interesting, thanks for this pointer. So "modern English" is what makes the difference here... > There are, however, lots of people who advocate for the lack > of a comma before the "and" in a list and that is taught in > some classes in some schools. This kind of arbitraryness is not good. Whatever "way" is preferred, it should be used consistently. > I don't claim to be a great German speaker or writer. I have > not visited there in 12 years nor lived there in almost 20 years.=20 > But people at least can understand me and I can get my point > across. :) With enough mental variability, that shouldn't be a problem. :-) > Most of my post was meant to support what you were saying, btw. =20 > As well as give examples and interesting tidbits. I agree that > proper grammar is important in language, even when I don't always > use it or do it; especially in informal speech like email lists, > forums, etc. Personally I do not "make" such differences. Proper spelling is easier (at least for me) than artificially avoiding it, like _not_ putting a comma where it belongs to, _not_ capitalizing a word that is to be capitalized, or _not_ using the proper spelling in favour of some "variant". However, I'm not considered "normal" so whatever I do does not imply anything. :-) > > But pleese pay atension too, the new englis orfograffy which > > make`s every thing easyer to under stand and, more freedems > > to mak punctation and les speeling errer's. > >=20 > > Funkzionier't auch in, Deutsch! :-) >=20 >=20 > You must really be taking a conniption fit with the changes > (Verbilligen -- cheapening -- though the exact words I was > searching for have failed me tonight) that have happened in > German in the last 10 or so years ( striking of =DF; to always > be written with "ss" now, etc)... The Eszett has been abolished in Switzerland, not in Germany. The "new" rule (historically: old, has been abolished after about 100 years in use because too much prone to errors) says something about "short vs. long vowels" which is nonsense (as vowel length depends on dialect, not on spelling), so some valid =DF get turned into ss. Effect: Most valid =DF get turned into ss, and even some innocent s get turned into ss, like Massband or Zeugniss. :-) I'm still looking for a valid translation of "bespa=DFen", an accusative-passive construct of "to entertain somebody". :-) > >> Und "Playboy alles was Maennern Spass macht" ist 100% verst=E4ndlich > >> auf deutsch, da es einen richtigen Dativ Kasus gibt, im Gegensatz > >> zu englischer Sprache. > >=20 > > It may be 100% understandable, but it's not correct, because it's > > not a sentence or a grammatically valid construct. The translation > > would have been (quite literally, I admit): > >=20 > > Playboy everything what men fun makes >=20 > Actually, no. A more correct translation would be: > Playboy everything that to men fun makes. Yes, that's much more valid, that's why I wrote "literally", which means sloppy and possibly wrong, because I didn't find a proper way to have the dative case "encoding" without adding additional words, so it's even wronger. :-) > [Or, if you wanted the same mistake (lack of comma or hyphen) but > proper English word order: Playboy everything that is fun for men.] Whom is it fun for? +Dativ. Whom is it fun to? +Dativ. Sadly, I can't bring the "Dativ joke" here: Ulli hat Dativ mitgebracht - f=FCr jedem einem. Ulli has brought Dativ - one for everyone. Yes, the translation isn't funny anymore. :-( > "M=E4nnern" is dative case, which, when used without a preposition, > is best translated as "to <something>" where <something> is written > with dative case endings. Case endings and clear preposition requirements are something much stronger for example in the russian language. They are represented even in spelling. Here we have to get them from context. --=20 Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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