Date: Sun, 10 May 2015 00:03:54 -0700 From: Adrian Chadd <adrian@freebsd.org> To: Glen Barber <gjb@freebsd.org> Cc: Jordan Hubbard <jordan.hubbard@gmail.com>, Tim Kientzle <tim@kientzle.com>, freebsd-arm <freebsd-arm@freebsd.org> Subject: Re: RPi2 support... Message-ID: <CAJ-Vmok4aKcaunziqbespJENZ5Lf970eBCJYdQF16PQyMj%2B6vQ@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20150510054019.GW94075@hub.FreeBSD.org> References: <0FD2F2B4EF6E490B9DB6CEF1119ECB70@ad.peach.ne.jp> <2DD4D1CE-E05B-44D7-B396-92BB4CD1D98D@kientzle.com> <B018348D-F24D-4E3C-8B8A-CE55890BC5A4@mail.turbofuzz.com> <CAJ-VmonnCMcKB0zEL=rOvhMnE4f24agV8EsZ6LHPtkhXhoQzNg@mail.gmail.com> <20150510054019.GW94075@hub.FreeBSD.org>
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On 9 May 2015 at 22:40, Glen Barber <gjb@freebsd.org> wrote: > On Sat, May 09, 2015 at 10:24:34PM -0700, Adrian Chadd wrote: >> gjb didn't like how development wasn't freebsd-releng-friendly (but >> really, which upstream vendor project is in all honesty) so he's >> rolled a replacement that's just landed in head. Time will tell which >> will work out better. >> > > My recent commit is not about "being better than Crochet", it is about > providing an in-tree build method (for RE purposes) that can be > reproduced. For people that do not need to do pristine-environment, > reproducible builds, I encourage the use of Crochet. > >> Me, I'm completely ignoring /all of that/ because I'm fed up with >> building things as root and having to do loopback mounts to build >> things and loopback devices to create filesystems. My mips stuff does >> everything 100% as a user, and it's actually really damned pleasant. >> I'd love to see FreeBSD move to that model but I have a feeling it'll >> be fighting against lazy developers who are used to having root >> everywhere. >> > > I personally fail to see the reasoning behind this, but I'm looking at > things from an entirely different perspective, I suppose. While it's > great that your tools provide a mechanism to produce a build as > non-root, FreeBSD releases are built as the root user. Hi, The reasoning is that there are more outputs of FreeBSD than just "make iso and snapshots for ftp.freebsd.org", and having things not require root simplifies a lot of system administration requirements. I have to currently jump through hoops via various FreeBSD-derived build things in order to tidy up when things go wrong because people use all the root features they can - zfs mounts, loopback mounts, loopback devices, etc - and it's just plain silly. Almost none of it is required. It's also nice to be reasonably sure you're not going to have some badly behaving piece of Makefile decide to scribble over the running system rather than the destination directory - so you use jails, but then you have to ensure they're tidied up as well. There's also the desire to build freebsd under non-FreeBSD, and having a build process that doesn't require root helps constrain things so you don't rely on FreeBSD-isms when there's perfectly good userland substitutes. It's okay, we can rant about this in person one day. :) -adrian
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