From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Mon Nov 26 20:38:08 2007 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7AE316A468 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:38:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from conducive.net (conducive.net [203.194.153.81]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CAFE13C4F6 for ; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:38:08 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from askbill@conducive.net) Received: from cm218-253-81-177.hkcable.com.hk ([218.253.81.177]:59699 helo=pb.local) by conducive.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IwkiV-000758-EZ for freebsd-current@freebsd.org; Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:38:07 +0000 Message-ID: <474B2EB1.7020304@conducive.net> Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:38:09 +0000 From: =?UTF-8?B?6Z+T5a625qiZIEJpbGwgSGFja2Vy?= User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; U; PPC Mac OS X Mach-O; en-US; rv:1.8.1.2) Gecko/20070221 SeaMonkey/1.1.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <473AD98A.8050003@gmail.com> <20071114115254.GA55351@eos.sc1.parodius.com> <473AEED9.6070301@gmail.com> <200711161618.40441.jkim@FreeBSD.org> <474AE170.7020309@net.utcluj.ro> <20071126154611.W65286@fledge.watson.org> <474B168F.4020706@net.utcluj.ro> <20071126200008.W65286@fledge.watson.org> In-Reply-To: <20071126200008.W65286@fledge.watson.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: RELENG_7 and HEAD: bge causes system hang X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 20:38:08 -0000 Robert Watson wrote: > On Mon, 26 Nov 2007, Cristian KLEIN wrote: > *snip* (this probbaly justifies a new thread ... but..) >> >> That is very unfortunate. Newer laptops don't come with a serial port >> anymore. As far as I know, using USB-to-serial converters won't work. > > Many notebooks do, however, have firewire. I've not read the firewire > code or used firewire for debugging, so I can't comment on how effective > breaks are, but I can say that one of the neatest things about firewire > is that you can inspect the kernel memory of a host remotely even when > it's frozen solid, which is pretty cool. So if you have a notebook that > is also without firewire, you may indeed be out of luck, but with > firewire, you have a nice new option. > *snip* > > I think getting an MPSAFE syscons would be desirable, but it's a > non-trivial piece of work, especially if you take into account that it's > tangled up in the tty code. If you have firewire, that may be a useful > option. However, I would agree with an assertion that notebooks are > becoming less useful as a development platform because of the omission > of a real serial port. *snip* A) Notebooks are at over 50% of new sales and climbing, so it isn't just as devel platforms - but as sources of 'field reports' of tester / user encountered problems that will become an ever-growing challenge. Worse, unlike a conventional MB, one cannot just plug in a bus card and emulate (or substitute for) the key subsystem involved, so at some point those laptops need to be accomodated. B) It isn't just laptops. Mac Mini-like, small-format packaging is taking another chunk out of the field. These, too are legacy I/O challenged as well as limited in bus sockets. C) Even full-ATX size MB have long-since begun shedding (external) serial ports as well as PS2 mouse & keyboard-ports, may not even ship with the cables or connectors to attach to such 'legacy' serial connectors as reamin - usually well-hidden somewhere on the MB. D) Much as I like FW, I haven't seen any indication that it has a guarantee of survival or universality any greater than once-common IRDA did. Too many price-driven decisions favor 'good enough' and far more common USB 2. Something will be needed soon/already to cover the general gap of missing SIO. We probably *can* count on audio I/O not going away, so perhaps ASCII to fsk - or even text to speech. :-( Bill