From owner-freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Fri Sep 4 16:38:53 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 720CE3C84D0 for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:38:53 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: from mail-il1-x133.google.com (mail-il1-x133.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::133]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1O1" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4Bjjzw4WwHz4Htw for ; Fri, 4 Sep 2020 16:38:52 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from aryeh.friedman@gmail.com) Received: by mail-il1-x133.google.com with SMTP id m1so6880626ilj.10 for ; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:38:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=DtH9szmbbuGswnQO3nBcWoeXPIbWqZgj2hkWeo357u4=; b=kzI1keg1h3GdGUYmhBH9EdNPb/EjTqTYH3CcQ7SAA40vyIM9/VAC28pCEQwpfjmxG5 iRFhIOrbGFL7t8gws6Pzu+Ol3dKzA459ZwjTeC7Unj4nAyl+9V4WIzvi5BUuPYMUk88u 7TC6HdNO6aTMGCOM3fMtbHOq0wbOPEqjkhwDwR0OWXai6VvzG5JtAeotIG456jY8Gmbw oajsWjacZej146+PV2MEO/Fhro8rTJVxqhxQpQ8fqXn4130OpAAaJxu3o1lCr7qIzsIa +bQ1J5829l/jLoxZw32LpH1JwWFKfzonbeXn9VnM0LPeAj7Rwl8cDg5b1GgdSDF+DgGs 7SHA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DtH9szmbbuGswnQO3nBcWoeXPIbWqZgj2hkWeo357u4=; b=EhuOlDOwcqCRoWKEa4ICwWvX8NO5Gw4WX7dR4YZy0QXTY80M88UCv9hbjRMu9NA/Rf iWQTRu+9tNfY2W4VM/V7dyo9c+KMqYXlYVoAfPFZLs1XeLmk2XvWcXtGaiBGYLUARj7m zwrzWlH17a3LY/26wFoI7xSgXkGOayqE6C1sefB2uO2e4l9Uy1Dek67s28Bopgb4yonn paA6RZAaX+A31Tjhe1AnCR7rRmp4k/WCxd0FUzwKDO2egDKKs4SwIhCvQ76tJu8cGCRh QgBLmTY9tzCWN1tpC9Fvg1/dMbP/YodtQi0IWdO5Jg033p2ueP0Qwi4+UqBe2BsD5rXW 4YBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM533fmYNIRT7TB6tlaq/oL5wPB3XejHDl5NplKv65F20pbBerOU/7 Gdfrzc3qP3g7Sqem4bh0bL2n8TEOlxDiKMkTREI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJyXRzWnmIkb4gFctQHq5uQzgxWlHFg+EK1mn1qxwu8Q/Q8FJqRDPo9FAXOAM3cHHg8UDjUSSFBGR1XfUDbBb4Y= X-Received: by 2002:a92:91ca:: with SMTP id e71mr4960205ill.185.1599237531403; Fri, 04 Sep 2020 09:38:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20200904104811.b08f24d8f0397e77cef01cbd@aim.com> <20200904181205.78cbb979@archlinux> <96896a75-3b65-1e9b-e7d2-5ddd6cc4b111@kicp.uchicago.edu> <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> In-Reply-To: <790a3043-5bb9-f70f-3bba-aaf96970cc88@kicp.uchicago.edu> From: Aryeh Friedman Date: Fri, 4 Sep 2020 12:38:40 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: OT: proof that Linux is brain damaged To: Valeri Galtsev Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4Bjjzw4WwHz4Htw X-Spamd-Bar: --- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; dkim=pass header.d=gmail.com header.s=20161025 header.b=kzI1keg1; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass (mx1.freebsd.org: domain of aryehfriedman@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::133 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=aryehfriedman@gmail.com X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-3.38 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.985]; R_DKIM_ALLOW(-0.20)[gmail.com:s=20161025]; RCVD_TLS_ALL(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; DWL_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[gmail.com:dkim]; R_SPF_ALLOW(-0.20)[+ip6:2607:f8b0:4000::/36:c]; FREEMAIL_FROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[multipart/alternative,text/plain]; PREVIOUSLY_DELIVERED(0.00)[freebsd-questions@freebsd.org]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-0.98)[-0.977]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; TO_DN_ALL(0.00)[]; DKIM_TRACE(0.00)[gmail.com:+]; RCPT_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2]; DMARC_POLICY_ALLOW(-0.50)[gmail.com,none]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE(0.00)[2607:f8b0:4864:20::133:from]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.42)[-0.421]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+,1:+,2:~]; FREEMAIL_ENVFROM(0.00)[gmail.com]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US]; TAGGED_FROM(0.00)[]; MAILMAN_DEST(0.00)[freebsd-questions]; RCVD_COUNT_TWO(0.00)[2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.33 X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.33 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Sep 2020 16:38:53 -0000 On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:26 PM Valeri Galtsev wrote: > > > On 2020-09-04 11:21, Aryeh Friedman wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Sep 4, 2020 at 12:13 PM Valeri Galtsev > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 2020-09-04 11:12, Ralf Mardorf wrote: > > > On Fri, 4 Sep 2020 10:48:11 -0400, Vlad D. Markov wrote: > > >> When criticizing systemd, I think the criticism should be > > directed at > > >> the distributions forcing its use. Linux doesn't have much to do > > with > > >> it. > > > > > > Apart from the embedded systems you described, it's probably not > wise > > > if a Linux distro diverts from using systemd, since systemd is > quasi > > > the standard init system and it's bundled with at least udev. > > > Maintaining a different init system, while maintaining udev or > > > something else from systemd, for usage without systemd, seems to > > me way > > > to much effort, even when being in favour of Linux. However, if > > > somebody is really that tired of Linux, as the OP is, I wouldn't > care > > > about Linux at all, especially not since the OP doesn't need to > > search > > > for an operating system that fits to his needs. He already seems > > to be > > > satisfied with FreeBSD, so there's no problem at all. > > > > My sentiment exactly. > > > > > > Except for one problem if you use FreeBSD as a desktop you're forced to > > deal with the systemd stupidity because Xorg (and wayland) refuse to > > believe that the entire universe does not use their prefered brain dead > > OS. > > My workstation and my laptop both run FreeBSD, win XWindow, Mate Desktop > Environment. For multiple yeas, and I do not have any problems. > > But I refuse to participate further in this thread for the reason I > stated earlier in this same thread. > You are of course free use your system until it becomes unusable but the FreeBSD Xorg team completely disagrees with you on having to make accomidations for systemd even when it isn't technical needed: https://www.x.org/wiki/Events/XDC2014/XDC2014PedronFreeBSD/XDC-2014_FreeBSD.pdf Same for virtualbox: https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=234878 > > Valeri > > > So it is not academic if you are using FreeBSD for more than just > > a server. Even then unless you want to use plain vanilla Apache then > > you are forced to deal with it to some degree for example even though > > the Java team for FreeBSD has done a good job removing it as much as > > possible from openjdk there is still some weirdness there. VirtualBox > > has not been able to successfully compile anything newer than 5.X > > because of the same problems. > > > > So saying "if you like FreeBSD and hate systemd/linux then use FreeBSD" > > is not really an option due to the viral nature of systemd and the > > laziness of developers who use it. > > > > TL;dr -- Due to many reasons just ignoring the problem because your on > > FreeBSD is not an answer > > -- > > Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org > > -- > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > Valeri Galtsev > Sr System Administrator > Department of Astronomy and Astrophysics > Kavli Institute for Cosmological Physics > University of Chicago > Phone: 773-702-4247 > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ > -- Aryeh M. Friedman, Lead Developer, http://www.PetiteCloud.org