From nobody Sun Aug 4 13:40:29 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-hackers@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4WcLLP4dZBz5SMJ0 for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2024 13:40:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Received: from mail-yw1-x112a.google.com (mail-yw1-x112a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::112a]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "WR4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4WcLLP2HqRz4cP1 for ; Sun, 4 Aug 2024 13:40:45 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from tomek@cedro.info) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-yw1-x112a.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-661d7e68e89so37798117b3.0 for ; Sun, 04 Aug 2024 06:40:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=cedro.info; s=google; t=1722778844; x=1723383644; darn=freebsd.org; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=X/JvGn+07MDHd3vI3VLA8vlB7j7PzDEpYVSAVVSDtZY=; b=huC6Ub4E7LWAVIOJsVvUArZe3HYmaR6WitV2aM+CRmESzt0+7Dt8nd6GIgtmHpH+bv tPmDDL+L0ABxXfvB73qveY0a6z49dvZFdgY1InXCpx38/EGuIGY45k2LroeEtaoX5OoB lVpv0Zwjn07DwtUgMmbAOIxV4D4nU1DgdndrV6V6rmymPorFz/BcmHUIh+WBFWKKWevK GbO9dhVHPBrrfel1rLAP/hsBjSHslsg5o9J/nA0Ph14qszpOZMZitl1jEDS0QIuujqo5 pgAomV9BIRc/eAWDNfH/jmH80nNq4aByEvocUmNqGFzoHqbpMhBsbkSsey60t8kqGlXo mrcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1722778844; x=1723383644; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=X/JvGn+07MDHd3vI3VLA8vlB7j7PzDEpYVSAVVSDtZY=; b=lUDbI+Px6dbPOdtc6n0Gs3gOb5mGEahsmyrQq03HRmHTZ5lL5CUv5iXN260EYI0f0r jK1kT2cECbQ7hit4opTXQCxtD6iosC1nhrwOrHXBv9ES5wxgOb8PnJ+/rIZM3cdnoJbE NzC1F3zPf7fe+bfkUgvasLLd8AqMLUSD+YInq/zlAFDzGQCl51/5PqHw0v39PZszVvAR jkoDukpS8Ubg+pO6V3PH8yGKWqSPPqqpVfXQnC0nKYdgDKk0/5ZGj/mx4zU/nWFMwOKa AgUo+9G/le95nZN3hJl3aHcCeBpLaGPs0zvGbkkK2YC4904SsmZweyuH/ayDGNOGbr7Z Q/vQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCX3nySi6+gHFfifZt2yi/eGNZ4P9XM9oStiZi8uWAZKsv+1YX2AaOhDfVSsfVNrVG1k0QI+MoVFzE4vP0+/pxdBxB5LxGMh7d6ULiQ= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YwcSIQrFELxRmEFPT/6cc3VbmtM1J+mgTawgGCSwi+6B0sFYLsn Ro2FTrOv17baC6bPZeHq7nBAiCzhUSssrmzx7hB6VMnc98hipMdZJERLOS7QkQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IGaYqcecV4rRKgHUOcSRwEaWPY3BotGhe6kDRbpfk46VJevn5+h4gduXJUx2nPCw+ICM/OvLw== X-Received: by 2002:a81:8186:0:b0:651:ee07:76c with SMTP id 00721157ae682-6885493fce5mr89850837b3.15.1722778843940; Sun, 04 Aug 2024 06:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw1-f171.google.com (mail-yw1-f171.google.com. [209.85.128.171]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-690b5f3fe74sm2604667b3.89.2024.08.04.06.40.42 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 04 Aug 2024 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw1-f171.google.com with SMTP id 00721157ae682-661d7e68e89so37798027b3.0; Sun, 04 Aug 2024 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCXAlEHR/lzbBP+x/BK+rA8nAOXwUJ/J5YDH4rBfEW272dbbTUdAqJ9O7fkJWjmsw9KhNgVM1VxdZo4CM8oE43RwrZIDlTpzHhFYala2Iuy0U+PnLUkSgAV9W3Tr6TlWazM= X-Received: by 2002:a0d:e741:0:b0:65f:d6fe:5de4 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-688554df748mr85200577b3.21.1722778842460; Sun, 04 Aug 2024 06:40:42 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <202408041009.474A9ZXW048024@critter.freebsd.dk> In-Reply-To: <202408041009.474A9ZXW048024@critter.freebsd.dk> From: Tomek CEDRO Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2024 15:40:29 +0200 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: Subject: Re: The Case for Rust (in the base system) To: Poul-Henning Kamp Cc: Konstantin Belousov , Warner Losh , Alan Somers , FreeBSD Hackers Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee83f5061edbb448" X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2607:f8b0::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4WcLLP2HqRz4cP1 --000000000000ee83f5061edbb448 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:10 Poul-Henning Kamp wrote: > -------- > Konstantin Belousov writes: > > On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 11:36:52AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote: > > > [...] > > > These are the things to think about. We don't need to solve all of > > > them, but the Rust ecosystem is quite a bit different than the C > ecosystem > > > in the details of a number of these points, so we have to address them > > > if we want to use Rust in base with the same traits as all the other > bits > > > in base today (or we need to have a thoughtful discussion on paradigm > > > shift and settle on that). [...] > > > > [...] > > > > Instead of starting with integration into the build system, lets decide > > which useful things can we implement in Rust. Lets ignore the problems > > of integrating (not yet written) code into the build, the problem of > > crates that should be vendored, etc. > > Stop. > > Just Stop! > > Let me address kib@'s argument first: > > Until we recognize the difference between "a programming language" and > "an ecosystem" these debates will lead nowhere. > > If we continue ignore that crucial difference, we will be repeating > our prior mistakes instead of learning from them. > > Back in the mists of time we imported Perl into the base system, > based on arguments /identical/ to what we hear now about Rust. > > Importing Perl almost instantly turned into a disaster. > > We had overlooked that Perl was not just a programming language, > it was an ecosystem of a language /and/ an rapidly exploding number > of Perl Modules from everybody and everywhere. (..) +1 :-) -- CeDeROM, SQ7MHZ, http://www.tomek.cedro.info --000000000000ee83f5061edbb448 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Sun, Aug 4, 2024, 12:10 Poul-Henning= Kamp <phk@phk.freebsd.dk> = wrote:
--------
Konstantin Belousov writes:
> On Sat, Aug 03, 2024 at 11:36:52AM -0600, Warner Losh wrote:
> > [...]
> > These are the things to think about. We don't need to solve a= ll of
> > them, but the Rust ecosystem is quite a bit different than the C = ecosystem
> > in the details of a number of these points, so we have to address= them
> > if we want to use Rust in base with the same traits as all the ot= her bits
> > in base today (or we need to have a thoughtful discussion on para= digm
> > shift and settle on that). [...]
>
> [...]
>
> Instead of starting with integration into the build system, lets decid= e
> which useful things can we implement in Rust.=C2=A0 Lets ignore the pr= oblems
> of integrating (not yet written) code into the build, the problem of > crates that should be vendored, etc.

Stop.

Just Stop!

Let me address kib@'s argument first:

Until we recognize the difference between "a programming language"= ; and
"an ecosystem" these debates will lead nowhere.

If we continue ignore that crucial difference, we will be repeating
our prior mistakes instead of learning from them.

Back in the mists of time we imported Perl into the base system,
based on arguments /identical/ to what we hear now about Rust.

Importing Perl almost instantly turned into a disaster.

We had overlooked that Perl was not just a programming language,
it was an ecosystem of a language /and/ an rapidly exploding number
of Perl Modules from everybody and everywhere.
(..)

+1 :-)=

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