From owner-freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Fri Jan 10 19:04:10 2020 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@mailman.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF3F61F0658 for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 19:04:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jpaetzel@FreeBSD.org) Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 47vXTQ3vMdz3yWt for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 19:04:10 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jpaetzel@FreeBSD.org) Received: from compute2.internal (compute2.nyi.internal [10.202.2.42]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CFED21AFB for ; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 14:04:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from imap2 ([10.202.2.52]) by compute2.internal (MEProxy); Fri, 10 Jan 2020 14:04:09 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-proxy :x-me-proxy:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=GNaHxw nhePro++asb/JfbgW34jjoZLMDky+g20CMMaw=; b=imnI/dinMqx8SK7dnQCINc xRs4WPS1Befi1473D4JkEcqZNkQBYTZFTIkfUiP1FReWgT9QbpGBsHTrqKcF9daj pD8dH8HqwnlUMDdByRvhRlMuEswaLp0Tc5dpRtaBdXu1McKFapmrKE9FIdh/Vjsk Kat5SLnKnc3i/trKUbwfRBBI+gAuMStloY6SNU5XBjWuqUEu2/CkjtTIYcLgwV/n praVj+Hkl3us8dc1dQifo+Kgfko4/YVaByeZ8aCbstkeIkzkXP3aqJ56Sysm98tD uPJqS1QtXV3p1LwNfankGlWH7Io/Q+4fqRRjHplNv8uICtH75ewWoDDmdldvywkQ == X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgedufedrvdeifedgudduiecutefuodetggdotefrod ftvfcurfhrohhfihhlvgemucfhrghsthforghilhdpqfgfvfdpuffrtefokffrpgfnqfgh necuuegrihhlohhuthemuceftddtnecunecujfgurhepofgfggfkjghffffhvffutgesth dtredtreertdenucfhrhhomhepfdflohhshhcurfgrvghtiigvlhdfuceojhhprggvthii vghlsefhrhgvvgeuufffrdhorhhgqeenucffohhmrghinhepfhhrvggvsghsugdrohhrgh enucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepjhhprggvthiivghlsefhrhgvvgeuufffrdho rhhgnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptd X-ME-Proxy: Received: by mailuser.nyi.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id E912DE00A2; Fri, 10 Jan 2020 14:04:08 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.1.7-740-g7d9d84e-fmstable-20200109v1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <7de57db8-4f65-4350-9357-5138974ed405@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20200110183816.GA6857@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <46480be7-b1a1-4da8-97ea-c4b97b0b997c@www.fastmail.com> <20200110172541.GA6529@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> <20200110183816.GA6857@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 13:03:24 -0600 From: "Josh Paetzel" To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Subject: Re: open-vm-tools in base Content-Type: text/plain X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 47vXTQ3vMdz3yWt X-Spamd-Bar: - Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-1.98 / 15.00]; local_wl_from(0.00)[FreeBSD.org]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-0.98)[-0.981,0]; ASN(0.00)[asn:11403, ipnet:66.111.4.0/24, country:US]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-0.996,0] X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2020 19:04:10 -0000 On Fri, Jan 10, 2020, at 12:38 PM, Steve Kargl wrote: > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 10:44:38AM -0700, Warner Losh wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 10:26 AM Steve Kargl < > > sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> wrote: > > > > > On Fri, Jan 10, 2020 at 09:55:23AM -0600, Josh Paetzel wrote: > > > > > > > > There is some precedent for this. Driver(s?) that were once a > > > > part of the tools have been moved to base already. The VMXNET3 > > > > driver is an example of this. > > > > > > > > > > There is also precedent for removing a working driver from > > > base and putting it into ports. See drm2. > > > > > > > Not the best example to cite as there's been a lot of bumps with that and > > the future distribution model is unclear to me. > > > > Oddly enough I disagree. :-) > > Does the problems for open-vm-tools occur in freebsd-stable, > where the kernel ABI should be stable? > HEAD breakage is most common. There have been a few MFCs that have broken STABLE over the years but they are rare. > Freebsd-current is the development tree, and kernel changes > might break 3rd party software. drm2 is a perfect example. > In-base drm2 was working just fine and kept up-to-date with > kernel changes when it was attached to the build. This seems > to be what Josh wants for open-vm-tools. Can you clarify which part of my proposal wasn't clear? Or is "seem to want" just a conversational usage of language. > Once drm2 was detached > from the build it was ocassionally broken, and someone (often > times me) would find and report the breakage. If open-vm-tools > is added to base, and then someone adds emulators/open-vm-tools-devel > which supercedes in-base open-vm-tool, we're back to the in-base drm2 > situation. > I believe I addressed that in my initial email. If there is a /usr/local version of the tools installed the user can select between the base system version and the "3rd party" install. > Finally, open-vm-tools is used by what percentage of FreeBSD users? > 1%? 5%? 50%? > I don't believe we have the data to answer that. I can give some ancillary data though: When I was involved with FreeNAS ESXi was the single most popular platform to run it on, even though we straight out told people virtualizing FreeNAS wasn't recommended. (At one point 30% of the ~100K systems that were phoning home were reporting ESXi as their hardware platform) The last two places I've worked the virtualized FreeBSD instances outnumbered the on the iron FreeBSD systems by 10:1. (and one of those places was a hardware vendor that specialized in FreeBSD!) My personal belief is that it could be greater than 50%. That wouldn't surprise me. However, since there is precisely zero downside to including the open-vm-tools in a hardware install, my counter question to you would be "what difference does the percentage make?" I don't see an actual reason for an objection in your email. We're not talking about changing the maintenance workload here, just shifting it around. > -- > Steve > _______________________________________________ > freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org mailing list > https://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers > To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscribe@freebsd.org" > -- Thanks, Josh Paetzel