From owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Oct 25 13:54:43 2003 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 776EA16A4B3 for ; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ns1.xcllnt.net (209-128-86-226.bayarea.net [209.128.86.226]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51ACD43FBD for ; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:54:42 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@xcllnt.net) Received: from athlon.pn.xcllnt.net (athlon.pn.xcllnt.net [192.168.4.3]) by ns1.xcllnt.net (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id h9PKsZbe075691; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@piii.pn.xcllnt.net) Received: from athlon.pn.xcllnt.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) h9PKsZGZ000791; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net) Received: (from marcel@localhost) by athlon.pn.xcllnt.net (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h9PKsZ0H000790; Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:54:35 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from marcel) Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 13:54:35 -0700 From: Marcel Moolenaar To: Kip Macy Message-ID: <20031025205435.GA689@athlon.pn.xcllnt.net> References: <200310230143.32244.wes@softweyr.com> <20031025175948.GF683@funkthat.com> <3F9AC703.4DBAA14C@mindspring.com> <20031025194135.GA790@dhcp01.pn.xcllnt.net> <20031025124518.F41344@demos.bsdclusters.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20031025124518.F41344@demos.bsdclusters.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i cc: hackers@freebsd.org cc: John-Mark Gurney Subject: Re: FreeBSD mail list etiquette X-BeenThere: freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.1 Precedence: list List-Id: Technical Discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 25 Oct 2003 20:54:43 -0000 On Sat, Oct 25, 2003 at 12:55:26PM -0700, Kip Macy wrote: > > There is also a problem in that the dirty work, even if done in a > > way that demonstrates that the person has skills, is not always > > recognised as important. The recognition has to come from within > > that part of the developer community that has commit bits, because > > you need someone with a commit bit to actually commit the stuff. If > > noone with a commit bit recorgnises the dirty work as important, > > it's not going to be committed and the person who has done the dirty > > work is not recognised as someone who is worthy of a commit bit > > because none of his work has been committed. > > > > I think this perfectly underscores, if not restates, Terry's point. He > doesn't believe sufficient value is placed on the "dirty work". There's a fundamental difference between recognition of important work and valuing important work. If you don't recognise it, you cannot value it. Undervaluing important work therefore implies that you at least recognise it. There probably is some undervaluing in the FreeBSD project. However, one must not forget that "there's always a bigger fish" (one of the more lame lines from The Phantom Menace, btw). There's such a thing as bad timing for dirty work. This does not render the dirty work unimportant per se, but it does make it irrelevent for the moment. This is where I think a lot of the friction originates. > Those working in the DragonFly tree, all appreciate Hiten's hard work as a > "bottle-washer". I don't understand why Hiten has to be insulted all of a sudden. Then again, it does make a weird kind of sense considering the following: > We've benefited from the fact that members of the FreeBSD > community, through racist remarks and endless flames, and a key member of > core, through the indefinite postponement of a commit-bit, have alienated > him. I for one am very glad you're not a member of the FreeBSD community. And given that you've found a place with DragonFly, there's little chance that you become part of FreeBSD community in the future. For that I'm also very glad. So, all in all, I'm very glad DragonFly exists. Now even more than before. Because besides the technical divergence it also seems to have the effect of purifying the FreeBSD community from those who are dumb enough to make a fool of themselves, and indirectly the project, race and species they're associated with or otherwise belong to. Unfortunately, that's still 2 out of 3 for me, but then again life wouldn't be so much fun for me if it wasn't for guys like you Kip. I can handle the embarrassment, so do stick around... -- Marcel Moolenaar USPA: A-39004 marcel@xcllnt.net