From owner-freebsd-stable@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Mar 23 23:27:27 2014 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [8.8.178.115]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ADH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F7434AF for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 23:27:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from ozzie.tundraware.com (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B4B9208 for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 23:27:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.0.2] (viper.tundraware.com [192.168.0.2]) (authenticated bits=0) by ozzie.tundraware.com (8.14.8/8.14.8) with ESMTP id s2NNNALr065686 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:23:10 -0500 (CDT) (envelope-from tundra@tundraware.com) Message-ID: <532F6CDE.60105@tundraware.com> Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:23:10 -0500 From: Tim Daneliuk User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: freebsd-stable stable Subject: Re: reason 23 why we've moved to linux References: <532EDDD0.80700@ohlste.in> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.4.3 (ozzie.tundraware.com [75.145.138.73]); Sun, 23 Mar 2014 18:23:10 -0500 (CDT) X-TundraWare-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-TundraWare-MailScanner-ID: s2NNNALr065686 X-TundraWare-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-TundraWare-MailScanner-From: tundra@tundraware.com X-Spam-Status: No X-BeenThere: freebsd-stable@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: Production branch of FreeBSD source code List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2014 23:27:27 -0000 On 03/23/2014 05:12 PM, Randy Bush wrote: >> Now be honest Randy, and tell us why you started this thread. > > in the hope that ports will be made usable before so many people give up > that critical mass is lost. a real tragedy if the great freebsd core > dies because of ports lack of usability. > I have run production FreeBSD ever since 2.x. I also work in an environment with north of 1000 Linux servers (plus AIX, plus Solaris, plus Windows...) Guess what? There is no clear winner here. RHEL RPM is a nightmare unless you manage it very carefully. Yum make is better but you still have to pay attention. There's a reason RH strongly encourages the use of Sat Server. Debian? Well apt-get mostly works until it doesn't and you have to paw your way through key problems and the like. SuSE? Ditto. AIX lpps? Nice, until you confront a piece of open source they don't support or haven't upgraded. Have fun compiling your own version. Complex systems environments require complex procedures and policies. The idea that some technology magically will make this work is absurd. Moreover, unlike some random hobbyist desktop (Not That There's Anything Wrong With That), enterprise class server environments migrate carefully, thoughtfully, only after reasonable testing, and only if really needed. On that basis, I can assure you that the FreeBSD ports system isn't particularly "less usable" than any commercially supported environment out there and certainly not linux broadly. It comes down to what you're willing to do to execute clean, stable upgrades. In truth, in almost 2 decades of use both in my own business and by some of my clients, FreeBSD has shown far less aggravation in this regard than the Tower Of Babel linux distros have become. Me? I don't much care. The more screwed up things are, the more opportunities for additional work I find :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tim Daneliuk tundra@tundraware.com PGP Key: http://www.tundraware.com/PGP/