From owner-freebsd-questions@FreeBSD.ORG Thu Aug 30 15:38:15 2012 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [69.147.83.52]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DB69106564A for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:38:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jeffreybouquet@yahoo.com) Received: from nm23-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm23-vm0.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.91.224]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 271498FC0C for ; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:38:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [98.139.91.66] by nm23.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Aug 2012 15:35:37 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.21] by tm6.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Aug 2012 15:35:37 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1021.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 30 Aug 2012 15:35:37 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 904865.5624.bm@omp1021.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 79359 invoked by uid 60001); 30 Aug 2012 15:35:37 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1346340937; bh=R3i2td1oXGR5slntoRhrY9+FxNeHHBAUlbKy6vwltVE=; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=JrBoD3f4Jj9NelQjegfvxweyeu2+oaxeuKq4htmj+/6WJvmmffGYWp7uSBiRtGK0SweI0LXth6fK65dudkwnTKo8ydL6X+/NEuf4gEY30SaUzJSDZjqdZrAEujM+WYVwvdYodylPDaDRYiAC/VPPTa5tibOYbDGs1lIm8N8L8+w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Message-ID:Date:From:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=k2e+jurMjPh9qA+clbZeclsFGeYDGfUAKBwj4u2nMOHBL+3Qb0XQCrw60PnFxTCdS3OpkQtclbbCNcGK0O7OVpqwP/XTBiGkqIOe0mSv5Wu6YgVz69TDusFQlUjAheWSRHkF/jWcKj7q8ejxf0070R4gSsR3di1Kqwu2TSCNy3E=; X-YMail-OSG: Qdc8aSIVM1mFy8tQodDZL6vS7ek6oUgbqnIXKcBZd.026bk 4dLk_iiHgpA5EvwjTenXZ3RQczW4hXC4039NRFfYXSzyQrIkugxlxDNuIUWr PB5xemU5bVF9_944VKHSZZmNs9QsIRp.5L36Cmor88zd816QzHiqYoJj3TB9 dD762W7temmPJVR_QdEjuRFg81DSvBBr6xDr4MNPHmBJENx8UfxXTZ0I7Jch YsGONddZEFtcBoHD0q4tl0IAXwKlfkRqGmBsPyXOVFeQPJi.xImwnPH1ER2. uSY_SZy9qv_g5SnNEJlqwKXXlX1eF2xBX6sS1nrMKTevgRqMsnJ.i0_b6U2C FGQjbuhNbeSOd6ZC_zC9cD1xkwzbzCGjbvC.umVMrGq_Iz5Z9sU47ib3RvtA 8TrRO5nsplU5TnbcEeMR7nf8_l895rDDd8sc_MKaZVIyAdo0q2CylykZPY0D PwcR9hwEAiCpcpdumxQOJaAAkt9N1ciOWxZ_8aTGIplVw0xmHbiSpwdfhjmy 9EcU3SGiNylCIroKz7VQj0uGrpx7L1iXBWjautQQwjVV0L7YRibz_ezY- Received: from [66.92.43.99] by web111311.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:35:37 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/15.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.121.416 Message-ID: <1346340937.49916.YahooMailClassic@web111311.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 08:35:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Jeffrey Bouquet To: Matt Burke In-Reply-To: <503F7C5A.4070001@icritical.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org Subject: Re: pkgng questions X-BeenThere: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: User questions List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 15:38:15 -0000 =0A=0A--- On Thu, 8/30/12, Matt Burke wrote:=0A= =0A> From: Matt Burke =0A> Subject: Re: pkgng que= stions=0A> To: "Mark Felder" =0A> Cc: ports@freebsd.org=0A> D= ate: Thursday, August 30, 2012, 7:44 AM=0A> On 08/30/12 13:01, Mark Felder= =0A> wrote:=0A> > I think you're very confused about what pkgng is for.=0A>= At this time, ports=0A> > are STILL the recommended way to install things = and=0A> keep them up to date.=0A> =0A> Really? I think the last time I comp= iled X or a web browser=0A> (until using=0A> poudriere) was about 10 years = ago.=0A> =0A=0AI mix packages and ports here, heavily using zsh;/var/db/pkg= /;pipes;portmaster and a thumbdrive(ftp) to other machines=0A=0A=0A> =0A> >= Pkgng is the first step required for us to get a better=0A> package manage= ment=0A> > system so we can shift the community towards primarily=0A> using= packages.=0A> =0A> I like packages - they save me compiling massive things= on=0A> my desktop and=0A> they let me keep my servers running exactly the = same=0A> software built from=0A> our CI setup.=A0 'make package' is so quic= k and easy,=0A> it'd be hard to beat.=0A> =0A> So I thought I'd get a grip = on pkgng before pkg_* disappears=0A> from base.=0A> =0A> I had a couple of = questions I wanted to answer -=0A> =0A> 1) How easy does it make keeping my= desktop (currently=0A> releng/9.1 built=0A> with dtrace) up-to-date=0A> 2)= How much easier will it be to maintain production and=0A> testing servers?= =0A> =0A> =0A> The answer has made me start downloading an OpenIndiana=0A> = iso.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> >> 2. Is there a list of ports like nvidia-driver,= =0A> nspluginwrapper,=0A> >> linux-f10-flashplugin, sampleicc (dependency o= f=0A> libreoffice!) which aren't=0A> >> in pkgng?=0A> > =0A> > Everything c= an be built into the pkgng format except a=0A> few ports that need=0A> > wo= rkarounds. There's a list on the wiki.=0A> > =0A> > http://wiki.freebsd.org= /pkgng=0A> > =0A> > Go to the bottom "Known Failures" section.=0A> =0A> I d= on't see any of the examples I gave listed, apart from=0A> nvidia-driver=0A= > =0A> =0A> >> 3. How do I force pkg to install/upgrade a single=0A> packag= e, regardless of=0A> >> dependencies being out of date?=0A> > =0A> > You sh= ould never try to do this anyway; you'll end up=0A> with packages built=0A>= > against the wrong versions of libraries.=0A> =0A> You're suggesting that= I should upgrade an entire machine=0A> which may have=0A> proven itself ov= er a period of years to be perfectly stable,=0A> just because I=0A> need a = small utility which really doesn't care about the man=0A> page typo=0A> whi= ch caused gettext-0.1.2_3 to change to gettext-0.1.2_4?=0A> =0A=0ANotable h= ere, things which depend upon firefox; gcc46; ...=0A=0A> =0A> >> 4. How do = I get poudiere to build against a local=0A> src/obj tree, or a zfs=0A> >> s= napshot of a pre-built jail, instead of=0A> 9.0-RELEASE?=0A> > =0A> > The p= oudriere man page has all the instructions needed=0A> to create jails of=0A= > > any release version to be used for building packages.=0A> =0A> No, the = man page doesn't mention anything about specifying=0A> where to pull=0A> th= e distribution from, only what method of access to use.=0A> =0A> =0A> > You= don't do it this way. You build everything on your=0A> poudriere server an= d=0A> > push all of your packages to the client. You do this=0A> every sing= le time. If=0A> > you decide you want a new package on your client, you=0A>= build it on your=0A> > poudriere server and have your client request it. I= f=0A> you're using=0A> > poudriere/pkgng, your clients should NEVER be comp= iling=0A> ports or installing=0A> > packages outside of what your poudriere= server is=0A> providing. Poudriere is=0A> > giving you a "cleanroom" envir= onment where it can=0A> guarantee that all the=0A> > packages and their req= uired packages/libraries are=0A> sane.=0A> =0A> > Pkgng doesn't require ZFS= -- poudriere does. Your=0A> clients should never have=0A> > poudriere.=0A>= =0A> I am confused. If pkg_* are removed, how is a person with a=0A> singl= e desktop=0A> machine (worst case, a netbook) expected to operate if they= =0A> need a specific=0A> port build? Are they to spend a week compiling 100= 0+ ports=0A> themselves in a=0A> poudriere VM?=0A> =0A> Or is the flexibili= ty of FreeBSD ports just not deemed to be=0A> useful to the=0A> end user (o= r person unable to provide a dedicated any more?=0A> =0A=0AI am also perple= xed; (unconvinced; ignorant...).. Waiting for=0Aa more comprehensive compa= rison to what exists now. And I've =0Aread the documentation thoroughly, b= ut not enough times to=0Afully comprehend all the strata...=0A=0A=0A> =0A> = >> 8. Is there a pkgng equivalent of 'ls -lt=0A> /var/db/pkg' without firin= g up=0A> >> sqlite?=0A> > =0A> > Are you looking for the date column (not s= ure why=0A> that's useful as it can=0A> > change due to many things)? Doesn= 't "pkg info -a"=0A> suffice?=0A> =0A> 'ls -lt /var/db/pkg' will show me wh= at packages were=0A> installed sorted by=0A> day. It is very useful on serv= ers which aren't routinely=0A> upgraded to the=0A> latest and greatest unte= sted versions=0A> =0A> =0A=0A/var/db/pkg/ here is also indispensable, ( whi= ch I=0Adetailed precisely why in a message to the =0Afreebsd-current list, = this month... ) Until I'm forced to=0Aupgrade to /pkg/ instead (I've worka= rounds and=0Amaybe a PR or two (feature req.) thought out...), I see this a= s a fork of the package registration API to=0Asomething less useful to some= , more useful to others (those using less=0Aports than the number I've inst= alled, maybe. ) =0A=0A=0A=0A> >> 9. Why didn't pkg upgrade tell me it repl= aced my=0A> custom-built packages? I'd=0A> >> have liked for it to not brea= k stuff when=0A> /var/db/ports/*/options differed=0A> >> from the options I= can see pkgng keeps in its=0A> metadata...=0A> > =0A> > Your poudriere ser= ver can use you preferred options=0A> when it builds=0A> > packages. Check = the man page.=0A> =0A> pkg2ng doesn't tell you that you're about to need an= other=0A> machine=0A=0ASeconded.=0A=0A> =0A> $ man pkg2ng=0A> No manual ent= ry for pkg2ng=0A> =0A> =0A> > Long story short: poudriere is a tool for you= to build=0A> your OWN private=0A> > package repositories (which is really = handy!).=0A> =0A> It is handy IF you have the resources to maintain a=0A> p= oudriere machine.=0A> =0A> It is handy IF you really enjoy waiting for x.or= g and web=0A> browsers to compile=0A> =0A> It is NOT handy if you just want= to build one package to be=0A> built with=0A> different options. In fact i= t makes a mockery of FreeBSD's=0A> ease of use.=0A> =0A=0ASeconded. =0A=0A>= =0A> > Pkgng is just the first step towards a large goal of=0A> greatly im= proving=0A> > the enduser experience with FreeBSD.=0A> =0A> By "improving",= you mean "removing flexibility from"?=0A=0ASeconded. =0A=0A> =0A> =0A> > I= don't believe pkgng is default on any release yet, so=0A> you=0A> > should= n't be using public pkgng repositories for=0A> anything but testing. You=0A= > > should either be running your own poudriere server or=0A> you should ju= st be=0A> > using the new pkgng format with ports.=0A> =0A> Wait, you said = "If you're using poudriere/pkgng, your=0A> clients should NEVER=0A> be comp= iling ports or installing packages outside of what=0A> your poudriere=0A> s= erver is providing"=0A> =0A> So what is it?=0A> =0A> The information contai= ned in this message is confidential=0A> and intended for the addressee only= . If you have received=0A> this message in error, or there are any problems= with its=0A> content, please contact the sender. =0A> =0A> iCritical is a = trading name of Critical Software Ltd.=0A> Registered in England: 04909220.= =0A> Registered Office: IC2, Keele Science Park, Keele,=0A> Staffordshire, = ST5 5NH.=0A> =0A> This message has been scanned for security threats by=0A>= iCritical. www.icritical.com=0A> =0A> ____________________________________= ___________=0A> freebsd-ports@freebsd.org=0A> mailing list=0A> http://lists= .freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-ports=0A> To unsubscribe, send any ma= il to "freebsd-ports-unsubscribe@freebsd.org"=0A> =0A=0AI find this a very = difficult topic [2], sort of like debating =0Awhether FreeBSD should be for= ked to a FreeBSD-pc/bsd hybrid and=0Ano legacy version; complicated by the = many subtopics in the=0Aongoing discussion. It may be that I'd like the hy= brid result=0Abetter in the long run (more upstream repositories?) , but th= ose that are certain pkg will be=0Athe default in a future version have not= made obvious any =0Arecourse (or explanation [1]) for those (like myself) = who prefer to have the choice =0Aavailable, at least for the minority or ma= jority of FreeBSD users=0Awho mix packages and ports as a matter of course.= =0A[1] clearer examples of those who, for instance, should/should not=0Ains= tall other ports additionally to /pkg/, in the manner of a=0Aflowchart inco= rporating all/most use cases... (usb boot? pxe? ...)=0A[2] Newbie or someth= ing similar... =0A=0A=0AJ. Bouquet