From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Tue Feb 19 19:06:58 2019 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7724A14F9CA6; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 19:06:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from smtp-out-so.shaw.ca (smtp-out-so.shaw.ca [64.59.136.137]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "Client", Issuer "CA" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B30A6DD67; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 19:06:55 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from cy.schubert@cschubert.com) Received: from spqr.komquats.com ([70.67.125.17]) by shaw.ca with ESMTPA id wAj3gI0SInBo4wAj5gKUBg; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 12:06:46 -0700 X-Authority-Analysis: v=2.3 cv=J8fUEzvS c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:117 a=VFtTW3WuZNDh6VkGe7fA3g==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=CFTnQlWoA9kA:10 a=H2chl1sJAAAA:8 a=YxBL1-UpAAAA:8 a=6I5d2MoRAAAA:8 a=14nd0HSAzgTfDkdeeb4A:9 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=1LKL4F7LEIE-fDNXaEJ9:22 a=Ia-lj3WSrqcvXOmTRaiG:22 a=IjZwj45LgO3ly-622nXo:22 Received: from android-68f84e02b5988183.esitwifi.local (S0106788a207e2972.gv.shawcable.net [70.66.154.233]) by spqr.komquats.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C4BA9576; Tue, 19 Feb 2019 11:06:40 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 10:47:08 -0800 User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android In-Reply-To: <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> References: <201902181650.x1IGoRsZ006131@pdx.rh.CN85.dnsmgr.net> <11a49d72-3158-1b9a-f933-6702d8f5c238@nomadlogic.org> <362D8283-0B7D-402F-99CD-657021597955@cschubert.com> <20190219173554.GA1066@troutmask.apl.washington.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: What is evdev and autoloading? To: sgk@troutmask.apl.washington.edu, Steve Kargl CC: freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Pete Wright , "Rodney W. Grimes" , Warner Losh , Baptiste Daroussin , Niclas Zeising , "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" , Stefan Blachmann , Vladimir Kondratyev From: Cy Schubert Message-ID: X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfH7EbJlg27ZeAJHZdUpuI1k1CbLIZFQ6pz8EalFybzlC89KmE4KogvkI8rd3yugh+haJGMsfFKw1hjJ7Gfh3nHfvWUwAXPnG8trn66I7eGITcD0f0UZ4 jjQHJU6KbbxW6Ldtb5Lda6Z2HB5gNWw8IqjggNsiHM6nBIu2gmMqOc8Csr0eZYRq51EWj+1LSUlFLFOHbRBZNHwjDXa15az0AYBRqATNEXwt/NTjvz3HcLu6 l3pTz0ZMaz4Ept9mkhsOG8nMLF026zjSegNvvs5K2T2kOGqXSI4D+jj8efm3MPRvyTm4KqKpx+6peBHT6HWwj6tDOzBw64HuwPEJfuFc9be9uH9uJksmG7ky 0mi1moYN433Sg2WTS6hgFiBiUMT2CYUKraDLLiklGRvE2Zu+G2zrgPwY3NFwGeUnMJ7+ozgeB5Pv6pHdkZamRKHz3YwNW3/lIM+u/QKSuejZ4Ho6oy5DMtxj bC/+0+vgNNngbCTUOvD2T3ylWaaPq8sQzG5NkA== X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 8B30A6DD67 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.03 / 15.00]; ARC_NA(0.00)[]; TO_DN_EQ_ADDR_SOME(0.00)[]; FROM_EQ_ENVFROM(0.00)[]; FROM_HAS_DN(0.00)[]; TO_DN_SOME(0.00)[]; RCVD_VIA_SMTP_AUTH(0.00)[]; IP_SCORE(-1.93)[ip: (-4.98), ipnet: 64.59.128.0/20(-2.59), asn: 6327(-2.02), country: CA(-0.09)]; MIME_GOOD(-0.10)[text/plain]; MIME_TRACE(0.00)[0:+]; NEURAL_HAM_LONG(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; RCVD_COUNT_THREE(0.00)[3]; TO_MATCH_ENVRCPT_SOME(0.00)[]; MX_GOOD(-0.01)[cached: spqr.komquats.com]; NEURAL_HAM_SHORT(-0.88)[-0.883,0]; RCPT_COUNT_SEVEN(0.00)[11]; NEURAL_HAM_MEDIUM(-1.00)[-1.000,0]; R_SPF_NA(0.00)[]; RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW(-0.10)[137.136.59.64.list.dnswl.org : 127.0.5.1]; R_DKIM_NA(0.00)[]; SUBJECT_ENDS_QUESTION(1.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:6327, ipnet:64.59.128.0/20, country:CA]; MID_RHS_MATCH_FROM(0.00)[]; RCVD_TLS_LAST(0.00)[]; RECEIVED_SPAMHAUS_PBL(0.00)[233.154.66.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11, 17.125.67.70.zen.spamhaus.org : 127.0.0.11] X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 20:10:26 +0000 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Feb 2019 19:06:58 -0000 On February 19, 2019 9:35:54 AM PST, Steve Kargl wrote: >On Tue, Feb 19, 2019 at 08:17:48AM -0800, Cy Schubert wrote: >> On February 18, 2019 9:17:37 AM PST, Pete Wright > wrote: >> > >> > >> >On 2/18/19 8:50 AM, Rodney W=2E Grimes wrote: >> >>> On Mon, Feb 18, 2019 at 9:12 AM Rodney W=2E Grimes < >> >>> >> >>> I don't know=2E I think the fact that drm2 doesn't support anything >> >newer >> >>> than 5-year-old hardware is a pretty convincing evidence that the >> >old way >> >>> is broken and doesn't work=2E >> >> But it DOES work, I am pretty sure we have 1000's of users on that >5 >> >year >> >> old hardware that are totally happy with the intree DRM2 that is >in >> >stable/12, >> >> and some of whom have ventured into head/13 are having issues with >> >thete a >> >> "new" model (ie kmod broken by a base commit)=2E I know that there >is >> >wip >> >> to get CI coverage for that, but wip is wip, and we need to start >> >changing >> >> the cart horse driver order we keep doing and get things right=2E=20 >Port >> >> up and working, with CI testing *before* we go remove kmod'ed code >> >from >> >> base would be a much more appropriate path=2E >> >> >> >> I think one serious problem here is the summary dismissal of >things >> >> simply on the "5 year old" basis=2E Not everyone, and infact few >now >> >> a days other than corporate buyers, can afford new hardware, >> >> giving the minimal performance increase in systems over the last 5 >> >> years the cost/benifit factor of a new computer is just too low=2E >> >I've put a lot of effort helping test and document how to get a >usable=20 >> >desktop environment on a modern laptop=2E=C2=A0 there were two issues = which > >> >motivated me to do this: >> > >> >1) my observation that many developers at conferences and online >were=20 >> >using macOS as their primary desktop environment=2E=C2=A0 when compari= ng >this=20 >> >to the OpenBSD and Linux community I felt pretty embarrassed, but it >> >did=20 >> >explain the stagnant nature of our graphics subsystem=2E=C2=A0 people >seemed=20 >> >afraid to touch things due the brittle nature of its hardware >support=2E >>=20 >> I noticed this too=2E And every time it struck me as odd=2E >>=20 >> > >> >2) i was in need to an *affordable* machine with a warranty=2E >> >fortunately=20 >> >there are many affordable laptops at staples, best-buy and amazon - >but >> > >> >they were all post haswell systems, rendering them basically useless > >> >from a FreeBSD perspective=2E >>=20 >> Which is why removing drm2 was necessary=2E=20 >>=20 >> > >> >after trying to get traction to update the in-tree drm subsystem i >was=20 >> >lucky enough to sync up with the graphics team which was working on=20 >> >syncing things up with modern hardware support=2E=C2=A0 because of tha= t i'm >> >now=20 >> >able to get my small startup pretty much all on board with FreeBSD=2E= =C2=A0 >i=20 >> >use it on my workstations as well as on or server infrastructure=20 >> >(physical and AWS)=2E=C2=A0 i would consider this a success for our >community=20 >> >as it's opened up the eyes to a whole new generation of devs to >> >FreeBSD=2E >> > >> >one thing missing from all of these arguments is real data=2E=C2=A0 ho= w >many=20 >> >people are on haswell era hardware?=C2=A0 i can tell from my experienc= e >the=20 >> >past several years the number of people who have post-haswell gear >seem >> > >> >to be more numerous, or at least more vocal (and frankly easier to >work >> > >> >with while squashing bugs)=2E >> > >> >i can also say that personally it would be great to improve support >for >> > >> >systems requiring drm2 - but that gear is hard to come by, so we are > >> >really dependent on helpful collaboration from those who are being >> >effected=2E >>=20 >> Drm2 is not required=2E My current laptop is 5 years old, an HD3000=2E >The previous one is 13 years old, i915=2E Both work perfectly with >drm-current on 13-current=2E Franky, I don't see what the fuss is about= =2E >>=20 >>=20 > >My Dell Latitude D530 running i386 freebsd, which used the >i915kms=2Eko now locks up solid with drm-legacy-kmod=2E The PAE vs >non-PAE i386/conf/pmap=2Eh merger in r342567 broke drm-legacy-kmod=2E >It seems that Niclas has provided a patch that fixes the building >of drm-legacy-kmod=2E > >Doing a bisection on /usr/src commits is fairly slow as it >takes a day to build world/kernel and the minimum set of ports >need to fire up Xorg=2E r343543 and earlier appear to work fine >with drm-legacy-kmod=2E > >I have now lost 2 weeks of hacking time that could have been spent >on the missing C99 complex math routines=2E Yeah, I know very few >people care about numerical simulations on FreeBSD=2E=20 Going down an unexpected rabbit hole is frustrating=2E --=20 Pardon the typos and autocorrect, small keyboard in use=2E Cheers, Cy Schubert FreeBSD UNIX: Web: http://www=2EFreeBSD=2Eorg The need of the many outweighs the greed of the few=2E