From owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Sun Nov 15 19:12:35 2015 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-current@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:1900:2254:206a::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46FEBA3084F for ; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:12:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from na01-bl2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2on0141.outbound.protection.outlook.com [65.55.169.141]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail.protection.outlook.com", Issuer "MSIT Machine Auth CA 2" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B5C8A130C; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:12:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from BL2PR05CA0048.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.255.226.48) by BN1PR05MB058.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.255.202.145) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:12:25 +0000 Received: from BN1AFFO11FD039.protection.gbl (2a01:111:f400:7c10::196) by BL2PR05CA0048.outlook.office365.com (2a01:111:e400:c04::48) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.17 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:12:24 +0000 Authentication-Results: spf=softfail (sender IP is 66.129.239.17) smtp.mailfrom=juniper.net; freebsd.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;freebsd.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; Received-SPF: SoftFail (protection.outlook.com: domain of transitioning juniper.net discourages use of 66.129.239.17 as permitted sender) Received: from p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (66.129.239.17) by BN1AFFO11FD039.mail.protection.outlook.com (10.58.52.243) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.1.325.5 via Frontend Transport; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:12:24 +0000 Received: from magenta.juniper.net (172.17.27.123) by p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net (172.24.192.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.123.3; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:12:23 -0800 Received: from chaos.jnpr.net (chaos.jnpr.net [172.21.16.28]) by magenta.juniper.net (8.11.3/8.11.3) with ESMTP id tAFJCMD68198; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:12:22 -0800 (PST) (envelope-from sjg@juniper.net) Received: from chaos (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by chaos.jnpr.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF627580A9; Sun, 15 Nov 2015 11:12:21 -0800 (PST) To: Garrett Cooper CC: Andrey Chernov , Adrian Chadd , Dan Partelly , freebsd-current , Subject: Re: libXO-ification - Why - and is it a symptom of deeper issues? In-Reply-To: <6EDFB74B-2206-46E7-85F7-8DE05FB6D325@gmail.com> References: <0650CA79-5711-44BF-AC3F-0C5C5B6E5BD9@rdsor.ro> <702A1341-FB0C-41FA-AB95-F84858A7B3A4@rdsor.ro> <5648C60B.6060205@freebsd.org> <6EDFB74B-2206-46E7-85F7-8DE05FB6D325@gmail.com> Comments: In-reply-to: Garrett Cooper message dated "Sun, 15 Nov 2015 10:06:40 -0800." From: "Simon J. 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BN1PR05MB058; 5:wn4a8FmWuSxIUo7Dw6TaqbBUZ8OTpsEr1CIsTRg3CCR3eSbMRUdBav5vcphmC26THClilNaDyobnAD88dzNewfG6e4vgKQQLtYBx8mXd+Md4KxSQsk/duDb9nQFHPCOEJo5c20FhfzoV0ZGAQnt4GA==; 24:9svolxcYssmc+QgxaKbr7dPefOPjIHmhAOl8Du1Tsqb6d3DaQd8UIlF3pqThLJiryRH0zHLjEF69Vus3TwDdG4b3OHuYww6ff+G1mpzwx8k=; 20:KICQLvGThR/aDzk3+GHfewyOy8UhTGXJyg0tj4Wx60wcMklgaPifjcGM++p5eQmpmxDZ54t4965ZeiAbF/EgVQ== SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:23 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Nov 2015 19:12:24.1726 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalAttributedTenantConnectingIp: TenantId=bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4; Ip=[66.129.239.17]; Helo=[p-emfe01a-sac.jnpr.net] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1PR05MB058 X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.20 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2015 19:12:35 -0000 Garrett Cooper wrote: > We lack a [dtd/json] spec for tools, so programming for xo'ification > doesn't seems like the best idea in the world to me from a end-user > sysadmin/developer perspective. A dtd etc is good for sure, and we (Juniper) do have them, as well as ui-police to help ensure things go smoothly - even that doesn't catch everything. But all that is a layer above something like libxo - which is just the mechanism. All that is fundamentally required to obtain a reasonable result is consistent use of verbs and nouns. > I could just as easily use standard tools like awk, grep, sed, and > more advanced languages like perl or Python to parse output, and If you are parsing plain text output - that is all the data you have and it is a small subset of what the app knows. XML and HTML allow the app to provide lots of ancilliary/meta data that is invaluable in doing clever things with the data. Eg. by simply marking something as hostname/ipaddr the ui can hook in pulldown menus to let you do things with that info. I don't know if we've released anything I can point you at easily but 5 minutes would suffice to make a believer of you ;-) BTW libifying apps is a nice thing too, but does not eliminate the need to do all the exact same UI work - just changes where you do it, since the libraries themselves would need to be XO'ified to be useful.