From owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Fri Sep 1 16:52:33 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 134E116A4E0 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:52:33 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from server.baldwin.cx (66-23-211-162.clients.speedfactory.net [66.23.211.162]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7383543D69 for ; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 16:52:14 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) Received: from localhost.corp.yahoo.com (john@localhost [127.0.0.1]) (authenticated bits=0) by server.baldwin.cx (8.13.6/8.13.6) with ESMTP id k81Gnn2P036325; Fri, 1 Sep 2006 12:49:49 -0400 (EDT) (envelope-from jhb@freebsd.org) From: John Baldwin To: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org Date: Fri, 1 Sep 2006 11:57:27 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.1 References: <20060830232723.GU10101@multics.mit.edu> <20060831230813.GA28455@petunia.outback.escape.de> <20060901152732.GR10101@multics.mit.edu> In-Reply-To: <20060901152732.GR10101@multics.mit.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200609011157.29065.jhb@freebsd.org> X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH authentication, not delayed by milter-greylist-2.0.2 (server.baldwin.cx [127.0.0.1]); Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:49:50 -0400 (EDT) X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.88.3/1784/Fri Sep 1 08:00:05 2006 on server.baldwin.cx X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.4 required=4.2 tests=ALL_TRUSTED,AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=3.1.3 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.1.3 (2006-06-01) on server.baldwin.cx Cc: misc@openbsd.org, Harpalus a Como , "Charles M. Hannum" , "Constantine A. Murenin" , "Marc G. Fournier" , Thorsten Glaser , netbsd-users@netbsd.org, miros-discuss@mirbsd.org Subject: Re: The future of NetBSD X-BeenThere: freebsd-chat@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Non technical items related to the community List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 01 Sep 2006 16:52:33 -0000 On Friday 01 September 2006 11:27, Charles M. Hannum wrote: > On Fri, Sep 01, 2006 at 01:08:13AM +0200, Matthias Kilian wrote: > > They don't have to write device drivers at all, they just should > > write good documentation. > > Unfortunately, the "documentation" often isn't so hot either. I'll > give you an example. Even with both code and "documentation" from > Realtek, we still had to reverse engineer how some parts of the RTL8180 > work. And though it works now, our understanding is still incomplete. > > It is far easier for a manufacturer to spew out a Windows driver > in-house, where they have direct access to the people who designed the > hardware, so this is what they do. The Windows driver model is pretty > much designed around this approach. > > What we really want is not just documentation, but support from their > engineers. The Linux community is starting to get this in some places. Yes. In many cases, the reason a company doesn't want to release documentation is because it doesn't really exist, except in phone calls or e-mails between the Windows driver writer and the hardware guys. Software folks are notorious for poor documentation. It would be unrealistic for us to expect hardware folks to do a substantially better job. -- John Baldwin