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Date:      Tue, 23 Apr 2002 17:29:14 -0400
From:      Garance A Drosihn <drosih@rpi.edu>
To:        Robert Watson <rwatson@FreeBSD.ORG>
Cc:        "Greg 'groggy' Lehey" <grog@FreeBSD.ORG>, hackers@FreeBSD.ORG
Subject:   Re: Security through obscurity? (was: ssh + compiled-in SKEY support  considered harmful?)
Message-ID:  <p05111707b8eb78bd45ea@[128.113.24.47]>
In-Reply-To: <Pine.NEB.3.96L.1020423141144.64976l-100000@fledge.watson.org>
References:  <Pine.NEB.3.96L.1020423141144.64976l-100000@fledge.watson.org>

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At 2:37 PM -0400 4/23/02, Robert Watson wrote:
>Here I'll disagree with you: we make a concerted effort to
>produce a system that is safe to use.  This involves a number
>of things, and it doesn't just mean security fixes.  I would
>argue that we have a moral obligation to do so.

I agree that there is this obligation.  I also observe that
the internet is unquestionably getting to be a more hostile
place, and we have to adapt the system to stand up to that
hostility.

Let me claim that it is fact that we will have to make changes
to the default system configuration, and that we will also have
to make changes to the "preferred" system configurations when
someone is just upgrading.  I recognize that some people
disagree with that (particularly the second half), but let me
claim that for the moment.

I think an important component of any such change is making
sure the "right people" find out what changed, and that they
get this information when they *need* it, and not as part of
some 20,000 line "README" file which we know no one will read
because it's too damn big.

In the case of the sshd change, the change was simply wrong
and should be fixed.  Just MO...   :-)

In the case of the 'startx -listen_tcp' option, is there some
thing we could set up so a person who *wanted* the former
behavior is given quick notification of exactly why things
"suddenly stopped working".  Note that the person who runs
into the problem is not necessarily the same person who did
the system upgrade.  I think it's doable, if we just took the
attitude that it needed to be done.

Some of these changes catch me offguard too, and most of the
time it is not the change itself which bothers me, it's the
six hours I spent trying to find out why something stopped
working.  (a six-hour period which may not start until a week
or two after the system upgrade...)  I think that's the part
we need to improve on.

-- 
Garance Alistair Drosehn            =   gad@gilead.netel.rpi.edu
Senior Systems Programmer           or  gad@freebsd.org
Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute    or  drosih@rpi.edu

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