From nobody Fri May 21 03:02:53 2021 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 303F48C98FD for ; Fri, 21 May 2021 03:02:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@libassi.se) Received: from smtp.outgoing.loopia.se (smtp.outgoing.loopia.se [93.188.3.37]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (256/256 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4FmWcz05BKz3nC6 for ; Fri, 21 May 2021 03:02:58 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from peter@libassi.se) Received: from s807.loopia.se (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by s807.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 184BF2E6414C for ; Fri, 21 May 2021 05:02:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s899.loopia.se (unknown [172.22.191.6]) by s807.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 096F12E280CE; Fri, 21 May 2021 05:02:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from s470.loopia.se (unknown [172.22.191.5]) by s899.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 022B82C8B96C; Fri, 21 May 2021 05:02:55 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amavis.loopia.se X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1 tagged_above=-999 required=6.2 tests=[ALL_TRUSTED=-1] autolearn=disabled Received: from s645.loopia.se ([172.22.191.5]) by s470.loopia.se (s470.loopia.se [172.22.190.10]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id e9gkfa3QE9Xk; Fri, 21 May 2021 05:02:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Loopia-Auth: user X-Loopia-User: peter@libassi.se X-Loopia-Originating-IP: 217.31.161.79 Received: from smtpclient.apple (h-217-31-161-79.A444.priv.bahnhof.se [217.31.161.79]) (Authenticated sender: peter@libassi.se) by s645.loopia.se (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 39444156E443; Fri, 21 May 2021 05:02:54 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.80.0.2.43\)) Subject: Re: Reducing SIGINFO verbosity From: Peter Libassi In-Reply-To: <80625b01dd7a2740a23c22370741665e5d2ff6e5.camel@freebsd.org> Date: Fri, 21 May 2021 05:02:53 +0200 Cc: cem@freebsd.org, Michael Gmelin , "freebsd-current@freebsd.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20210520180155.3e23500e@bsd64.grem.de> <20210520185917.GL14975@funkthat.com> <80625b01dd7a2740a23c22370741665e5d2ff6e5.camel@freebsd.org> To: Ian Lepore X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.80.0.2.43) X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4FmWcz05BKz3nC6 X-Spamd-Bar: ---- Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[] > 21 maj 2021 kl. 03:42 skrev Ian Lepore : >=20 > On Thu, 2021-05-20 at 15:57 -0700, Conrad Meyer wrote: >> No, I don=E2=80=99t think there=E2=80=99s any reason to default it = differently on >> stable vs >> current. I think it=E2=80=99s useful (and I prefer the more verbose = form, >> which >> isn=E2=80=99t the default). >>=20 >> Conrad >>=20 >=20 > So... there are thousands of freebsd users, who don't care about this > noisy stack trace stuff at all. And there are dozens of freebsd > developers, and amongst them there are maybe, what... a half dozen at > best that want this info when they hit ^T? >=20 > So clearly, the right decision is to make maximal noise the default, > and not just in the development branches. It doesn't matter how much > it bothers the users as long as a few developers are happy. >=20 > And people moan about freebsd's dwindling user base and wonder why = it's > withering away. >=20 > =E2=80=94 Ian >=20 >=20 Well, from my 30+ years in the business I=E2=80=99ve learned that = developers actually don=E2=80=99t care about the users. For assessment = of new features and maintaining the usability of a product there are = Architects and Architect forums.=20 The correct and conservative way would have been that this change passed = the forum and there a desicion was made to enable/disable the new = feature _and_ regardless, inform the users via the release notes and = man pages of the new feature, including information how they can = enable/disable the new feature.=20 /Peter