From nobody Wed May 31 20:41:23 2023 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4QWh4w3kWFz4XZcl for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 20:41:36 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Received: from mail-ej1-x632.google.com (mail-ej1-x632.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::632]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256 client-signature RSA-PSS (2048 bits) client-digest SHA256) (Client CN "smtp.gmail.com", Issuer "GTS CA 1D4" (verified OK)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4QWh4v6bHZz3nvx for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 20:41:35 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wlosh@bsdimp.com) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: by mail-ej1-x632.google.com with SMTP id a640c23a62f3a-96fdc081cb3so910167966b.2 for ; Wed, 31 May 2023 13:41:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=bsdimp-com.20221208.gappssmtp.com; s=20221208; t=1685565694; x=1688157694; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=IJiJMDHifhjfAnxkSl3h41qlJj+GsqhZ2BkYK7rLGdg=; b=oHtTlcoBzIwfR7SEo3bNvYHcBjwPwEnGtnNwE2Hs7YQQIo3DFczFYN9NPGoUNodh2X Zz5WowkOzEHIUd+NKnHjurvRLLt33ZSo+rxOw0LZqe0LwPBbXEah/c05HAeSh38TbcZl ML9A/VToHY7De0EnvspMJRGDbD1DE1aj/ZP3PJsiVhSOTbLdmQQJk5/KCvTHG14bWRaJ Rszt/pxYFnG1n5RG/VclWTKlAqmYZyfmBMNojc/QywB4E9cMO/wEv5PDFHdOe/SYvXKE OlEFvisHKtmd6D4dP/DsrDQzZ3PQ7GMITpreJYAQ1o3MWNY5Loc1nt39EVvvclOSa+jO ApNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20221208; t=1685565694; x=1688157694; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=IJiJMDHifhjfAnxkSl3h41qlJj+GsqhZ2BkYK7rLGdg=; b=XmEGHa01Eq5JHARCcG33RJefEmzFm4gW64ZVP4BK2uAyOfBABQ3AErBkae5yLNBHAO pw5JV8TKnPnkKxEfePPfRxl3ncDjK+Y4JyvzaD/QCWomHFnySA6fqKdcFiZc4JZU1uBD SwbcTPAu+fvHlHwlD61tg4k3+GPiKOw73rx2+zPNPodEqmVETGpXgtWUNes04U6Jj2kO dzej/LGnuc1S2YvvzU10MBH/yZo98JXN1dkLvgtYLr4vG0VG89TSfBypKO+uAlE8lwaI qJfNm5w/f51pzBgxLhzif0zxSoCUKUMzF7rHtAPpX+mbelMtMBjUkdxsRIAtXQt1jPrZ b22Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AC+VfDzW6nWb3BcjXCy/4z8LOGS2+QZDM5ZC+paXJU8cRKnxY8+zJ94Y OJy1eLwikHCmcaIy0zG11xD+QO8cS4yQm/5u6zzU+1TB6cEJtx5B X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACHHUZ74fzBLazCdRoRwF8Hi4QMBA9/aSduHpBYu+AJ0hBguvVujZVgiqHMLRcdh+ERT4gp6HERM83VXhMBSGDHb7g0= X-Received: by 2002:a17:907:2d9f:b0:973:ff4d:d01e with SMTP id gt31-20020a1709072d9f00b00973ff4dd01emr6138663ejc.31.1685565694536; Wed, 31 May 2023 13:41:34 -0700 (PDT) List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <20230529105854.1903226d@thor.intern.walstatt.dynvpn.de> <20230531213026.275c4eaf@ernst.home> In-Reply-To: <20230531213026.275c4eaf@ernst.home> From: Warner Losh Date: Wed, 31 May 2023 14:41:23 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: WITH_BEARSSL: -8112 bytes available To: garyj@gmx.de Cc: FreeBSD User , FreeBSD CURRENT Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000007806f905fd035842" X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4QWh4v6bHZz3nvx X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:15169, ipnet:2a00:1450::/32, country:US] X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-ThisMailContainsUnwantedMimeParts: N --0000000000007806f905fd035842 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 1:30=E2=80=AFPM Gary Jennejohn wrote= : > On Wed, 31 May 2023 12:15:12 -0600 > Warner Losh wrote: > > [SNIP irrelevant text] > > > And no, I really do not want to support 'loadable modules'. BIOS bootin= g > is > > on the way out, and people > > that want to do complex stuff in the boot loader will simply have to do > > that in UEFI or maybe kboot/LinuxBoot. > > So, what exactly does "BIOS booting is on the way out" mean? I have four > computers which use BIOS booting. Three are too old to support UEFI and > the other one I simply set to BIOS booting out of habit. > New computers aren't supporting it. Its days are numbered. It's longevity i= s much shorter than UEFI's. These are all indisputable. I'm not planning on dropping it in 15, but the number of people that are using it is a declinin= g group over time. Time spent making EFI more effective will affect more people. That's what I mean. So I don't want to sink a ton of time into it. > The only computer I have which uses UEFI is a laptop which was already > set up to use UEFI and I was too lazy to change it. > > > There's low RoI on adding this complexity, imho. We'd be better off, > imho, > > making things like the graphics > > console optional since the fonts and code for that free up about 30k in > > stupid experiments that I've done > > (it's hard since vidconsole has a lot of calls into the graphics system > > that aren't optional and easy to disable, > > so I've had to do hack and slash to produce a super ugly result that is > > only suggestive of the final savings): > > -rw-r--r-- 1 imp imp 352256 May 31 12:04 loader_simp > > I don't know if I slashed too much, or not enough since the code is > rather > > hard to separate out, so if you > > really wanted to go down this path, it would take a lot of work and > patient > > understanding to make it so with > > the low end of savings 20k and the high end on the order of maybe 40k. > > > > There's likely other ways to conserve space. We've not had space issues > > with loader, et al, in the past, > > so it's not well setup for subsetting. Though the different filesystem > > support might also net you a fair amount: > > LOADER_NET_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_NFS_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_TFTP_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_CD9660_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_EXT2FS_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_MSDOS_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_UFS_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_GZIP_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > LOADER_BZIP2_SUPPORT?=3D yes > > as would compiling w/o ZFS, which uses its own method (eg > > WITHOUT_LOADER_ZFS). Tuning the loader > > at this level does start to get into the weeds a bit, but can offer ~40= k > > savings turning off all but NET and UFS: > > -rw-r--r-- 1 imp imp 344064 May 31 12:11 loader_simp > > you get even about ~100k when you disable ZFS support with > > -DWITHOUT_LOADER_ZFS: > > -rw-r--r-- 1 imp imp 241664 May 31 12:12 loader_simp > > (both of these are with the graphics console enabled without the silly > > hacks to see how much that takes up). > > Without the extras and ZFS, you might have bearssl and lua together > even... > > > > Hope this helps. > > > > This is interesting information. > Thanks! Warner --0000000000007806f905fd035842 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


=
On Wed, May 31, 2023 at 1:30=E2=80=AF= PM Gary Jennejohn <garyj@gmx.de> = wrote:
On Wed, 3= 1 May 2023 12:15:12 -0600
Warner Losh <imp@bsd= imp.com> wrote:

[SNIP irrelevant text]

> And no, I really do not want to support 'loadable modules'. BI= OS booting is
> on the way out, and people
> that want to do complex stuff in the boot loader will simply have to d= o
> that in UEFI or maybe kboot/LinuxBoot.

So, what exactly does "BIOS booting is on the way out" mean?=C2= =A0 I have four
computers which use BIOS booting.=C2=A0 Three are too old to support UEFI a= nd
the other one I simply set to BIOS booting out of habit.

New computers aren't supporting it. Its days are numb= ered. It's longevity is
much shorter than UEFI's. These a= re all indisputable. I'm not planning on
dropping it in 15, b= ut the number of people that are using it is a declining
group ov= er time. Time spent making EFI more effective will affect more
pe= ople. That's what I mean. So I don't want to sink a ton of time int= o it.
=C2=A0
The only computer I have which uses UEFI is a laptop which was already
set up to use UEFI and I was too lazy to change it.

> There's low RoI on adding this complexity, imho. We'd be bette= r off, imho,
> making things like the graphics
> console optional since the fonts and code for that free up about 30k i= n
> stupid experiments that I've done
> (it's hard since vidconsole has a lot of calls into the graphics s= ystem
> that aren't optional and easy to disable,
> so I've had to do hack and slash to produce a super ugly result th= at is
> only suggestive of the final savings):
> -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 1 imp=C2=A0 imp=C2=A0 352256 May 31 12:04 loader_simp=
> I don't know if I slashed too much, or not enough since the code i= s rather
> hard to separate out, so if you
> really wanted to go down this path, it would take a lot of work and pa= tient
> understanding to make it so with
> the low end of savings 20k and the high end on the order of maybe 40k.=
>
> There's likely other ways to conserve space. We've not had spa= ce issues
> with loader, et al, in the past,
> so it's not well setup for subsetting. Though the different filesy= stem
> support might also net you a fair amount:
> LOADER_NET_SUPPORT?=3D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 yes
> LOADER_NFS_SUPPORT?=3D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 yes
> LOADER_TFTP_SUPPORT?=3D=C2=A0 =C2=A0yes
> LOADER_CD9660_SUPPORT?=3D yes
> LOADER_EXT2FS_SUPPORT?=3D yes
> LOADER_MSDOS_SUPPORT?=3D=C2=A0 yes
> LOADER_UFS_SUPPORT?=3D=C2=A0 =C2=A0 yes
> LOADER_GZIP_SUPPORT?=3D=C2=A0 =C2=A0yes
> LOADER_BZIP2_SUPPORT?=3D=C2=A0 yes
> as would compiling w/o ZFS, which uses its own method (eg
> WITHOUT_LOADER_ZFS). Tuning the loader
> at this level does start to get into the weeds a bit, but can offer ~4= 0k
> savings turning off all but NET and UFS:
> -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 1 imp=C2=A0 imp=C2=A0 344064 May 31 12:11 loader_simp=
> you get even about ~100k when you disable ZFS support with
> -DWITHOUT_LOADER_ZFS:
> -rw-r--r--=C2=A0 1 imp=C2=A0 imp=C2=A0 241664 May 31 12:12 loader_simp=
> (both of these are with the graphics console enabled without the silly=
> hacks to see how much that takes up).
> Without the extras and ZFS, you might have bearssl and lua together ev= en...
>
> Hope this helps.
>

This is interesting information.

Thanks= !

Warner=C2=A0
--0000000000007806f905fd035842--