From owner-freebsd-ports@FreeBSD.ORG Sun Sep 11 20:35:56 2011 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:fff6::34]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 385451065670; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:35:56 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from wonkity.com (wonkity.com [67.158.26.137]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A062B8FC15; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:35:55 +0000 (UTC) Received: from wonkity.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by wonkity.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id p8BKZlcr011142; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:35:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Received: from localhost (wblock@localhost) by wonkity.com (8.14.5/8.14.5/Submit) with ESMTP id p8BKZlM7011139; Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:35:47 -0600 (MDT) (envelope-from wblock@wonkity.com) Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:35:47 -0600 (MDT) From: Warren Block To: Chris Rees In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <4E6B1AF5.7090900@tomse.dk> <4E6B227B.5050708@FreeBSD.org> <4E6B77EE.6030509@gmx.de> <20110910171530.GC23457@guilt.hydra> <20110910190549.GA23971@guilt.hydra> <20110911124910.GK13219@portland.byshenk.net> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-902635197-1833353319-1315773347=:10961" X-Greylist: Sender IP whitelisted, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.7 (wonkity.com [127.0.0.1]); Sun, 11 Sep 2011 14:35:47 -0600 (MDT) Cc: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org, Greg Byshenk Subject: Re: Removed ports - looking from the bench X-BeenThere: freebsd-ports@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: Porting software to FreeBSD List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2011 20:35:56 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---902635197-1833353319-1315773347=:10961 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Sun, 11 Sep 2011, Chris Rees wrote: > On 11 September 2011 15:35, Warren Block wrote: >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2011, Greg Byshenk wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Sep 10, 2011 at 01:05:49PM -0600, Chad Perrin wrote: >>>> >>>> Why? >>> >>> Because, in the cases here under discussion, there is somethin "wrong" >>> (for some value of 'wrong') with the software in question.  I can't >>> speak for Matthias or Chris, but I think the point here is that (at >>> least some) people don't want to make foot-shooting easier. >> >> Slippery slope: consider PHP, or Apache, or any MTA.  Or newfs. > > No. PHP, Apache and the MTAs are maintained. Newfs is not buggy. There is "something "wrong" (for some value of 'wrong')" with all of these. newfs will easily overwrite an existing filesystem, for example. That's the slope, the degree to which ports or FreeBSD is going to go to assume ignorance on the part of the user and protect them from themselves. Historical precedent is to inform the user about problems but otherwise assume they know what they're doing. Certainly that's wrong at times, but the other way is the road to "That's dangerous and therefore not allowed." Whether there's overt questioning or security through obscurity, there is no way for the software to take on the responsibilities of the operator. > Straw men are the tool of someone who has no more valid points to > make, remember that. As is calling a point a straw man rather than addressing it. Probably neither is quite right. Let me suggest a reasonable[1] plan: Modify portdowngrade[2] or create another tool[2] to retrieve removed ports. Show the scary reason for removal before getting files from CVS. The user acknowledges that implicitly by retrieving files, or explicitly by answering an "Are you really, really, ultra-double sure?" question. The existence of this tool satisfies[3] users who want to install old ports. Continue the removal of dead ports as it has been going. If archival of old historical distfiles is needed, that's not really a FreeBSD problem. Start a new project with its own website. Quick, somebody register deadports.org![4] [1] All reasonableness is subjective. [2] Not it! [3] Well, no, some people won't be satisfied, ever. But this would address the problem and might mollify or assuage or assistify. [4] There may be something out there already that can be used. In fact, I think we'd all be surprised if there wasn't. ---902635197-1833353319-1315773347=:10961--