From owner-freebsd-fs@FreeBSD.ORG Sat Jun 8 21:33:48 2013 Return-Path: Delivered-To: fs@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.FreeBSD.org [8.8.178.115]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D86E841; Sat, 8 Jun 2013 21:33:48 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jdc@koitsu.org) Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (relay3-d.mail.gandi.net [217.70.183.195]) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA91215EC; Sat, 8 Jun 2013 21:33:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from mfilter13-d.gandi.net (mfilter13-d.gandi.net [217.70.178.141]) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7234AA80B5; Sat, 8 Jun 2013 23:33:36 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mfilter13-d.gandi.net Received: from relay3-d.mail.gandi.net ([217.70.183.195]) by mfilter13-d.gandi.net (mfilter13-d.gandi.net [10.0.15.180]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w7AhcTduo7HU; Sat, 8 Jun 2013 23:33:34 +0200 (CEST) X-Originating-IP: 76.102.14.35 Received: from jdc.koitsu.org (c-76-102-14-35.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.102.14.35]) (Authenticated sender: jdc@koitsu.org) by relay3-d.mail.gandi.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 8D950A80B1; Sat, 8 Jun 2013 23:33:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by icarus.home.lan (Postfix, from userid 1000) id B0D6273A1C; Sat, 8 Jun 2013 14:33:31 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2013 14:33:31 -0700 From: Jeremy Chadwick To: Steven Hartland Subject: Re: Changing the default for ZFS atime to off? Message-ID: <20130608213331.GB18201@icarus.home.lan> References: <16FEF774EE8E4100AD2CAEC65276A49D@multiplay.co.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <16FEF774EE8E4100AD2CAEC65276A49D@multiplay.co.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) Cc: fs@freebsd.org X-BeenThere: freebsd-fs@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: Filesystems List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2013 21:33:48 -0000 On Sat, Jun 08, 2013 at 07:54:04PM +0100, Steven Hartland wrote: > One of the first changes we make here when installing machines > here to changing atime=off on all ZFS pool roots. > > I know there are a few apps which can rely on atime updates > such as qmail and possibly postfix, but those seem like special > cases for which admins should enable atime instead of the other > way round. > > This is going to of particular interest for flash based storage > which should avoid unnessacary writes to reduce wear, but it will > also help improve performance in general. > > So what do people think is it worth considering changing the > default from atime=on to atime=off moving forward? > > If so what about UFS, same change? I **strongly** oppose this change, for one key reason: the classic Berkeley UNIX mail spool format (known as "mbox"), which is still predominantly used on most UNIX systems today. Mail clients which read mbox files require a combination of atime and mtime to determine if new mail has arrived within the mailbox. If mtime > atime, then there's new mail. Not all mail clients support alternate methods of detection (for example mutt has check_mbox_size, which has had bugs/problems in the past (Google check_mbox_size), and is fallible in other ways). Further points: - FreeBSD comes with sendmail (MTA/MDA), which supports only mbox natively - FreeBSD comes with mail/Mail/mailx (client), which only supports only mbox natively - FreeBSD comes with biff/comsat, as well as from(1), which supports only mbox natively FACT: We have no idea how prevalent these programs/features are used throughout people's systems. Any responses on freebsd-fs@ will be the minority -- anyone familiar with FreeBSD knows that only when you change (break) something do people start crawling out of the woodwork (the recent fxp(4) situation on 8.4-RELEASE is proof). What this means is that "by default" we have to assume that people are reliant upon this type of functionality, and that by disabling it by default (on any filesystem type) we will cause a very serious problem. (Imagine telling your boss "the reason I didn't respond to your Email promptly is because the FreeBSD people disabled atime by default and thus new mail detection in my mail client stopped working"). Please read my blog post, circa 2009, for further details: http://koitsu.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/unix-mail-format-annoyances/ Note: switching to Maildir is not an option, as I explain in my blog (ZFS does not generally perform well with thousands of small files in a single directory, or if multiple mailboxes, thousands of files per multiple directories), and none of the above utilities that come with FreeBSD support anything but mbox. TL;DR -- Do not disable atime by default, you will anger many people. Yes, their existing filesystems will still have atime=on, but the instant the administrator builds a new box or upgrades + builds a new filesystem...... -- | Jeremy Chadwick jdc@koitsu.org | | UNIX Systems Administrator http://jdc.koitsu.org/ | | Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP 4BD6C0CB |