From nobody Thu Jan 11 13:30:10 2024 X-Original-To: freebsd-current@mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mlmmj.nyi.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4T9lsS6xr2z55lBV for ; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:30:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=kULW=IV=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (elsa.codelab.cz [94.124.105.4]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4T9lsS3HZVz4HwR; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 13:30:20 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from SRS0=kULW=IV=quip.cz=000.fbsd@elsa.codelab.cz) Authentication-Results: mx1.freebsd.org; none Received: from elsa.codelab.cz (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32336D7894; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:30:12 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1704979812; bh=5Fpf5ZtRsn54FgDtCn8t14WffSVVpxIOPokj8r+t7Fk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=nEvjhFnPEYZO8+0cjxo5laAPocsmKENmkzb1NBXpGSDk8ZCAQLx/qi5cmxSZVi1gy 5rAvQPUXLpM1sTXetTBP5mnJX56lfH7y35GnPh2vqKZWhu0p4PtGK/YfgSZrVmFz6e IzZna4d6UyWZScmWDtBsN9DEuADE0yW2JU2k3/8s= Received: from [192.168.145.49] (ip-89-177-27-225.bb.vodafone.cz [89.177.27.225]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by elsa.codelab.cz (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0C1C2D7888; Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:30:10 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=quip.cz; s=private; t=1704979811; bh=5Fpf5ZtRsn54FgDtCn8t14WffSVVpxIOPokj8r+t7Fk=; h=Date:Subject:To:Cc:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=wtMdBu+ktb6NwHJe/RKXAD6uOEPLtOivkCqTga4GwotTE4Lo8VM9UcJm2FmE9MYpo VO52ZFeXowG3HkZgOYyhdJKa0HBdTOGm+Aed6cxaWfmRf7zmF+MutvcqJRqo8P8h2k NMdKoDbgmRTzfFNC6kwF51xhIkxairgr+NZr8vmQ= Message-ID: <233b0bd9-3867-479b-a265-21bf5df0f6ff@quip.cz> Date: Thu, 11 Jan 2024 14:30:10 +0100 List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-current List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-current@freebsd.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: noatime on ufs2 To: Tomoaki AOKI , Alexander Leidinger Cc: Mark Millard , olce@freebsd.org, Current FreeBSD References: <20240111175430.e8070ef9415a092ac1a03a1c@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Content-Language: cs-Cestina, en-US From: Miroslav Lachman <000.fbsd@quip.cz> In-Reply-To: <20240111175430.e8070ef9415a092ac1a03a1c@dec.sakura.ne.jp> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 4T9lsS3HZVz4HwR X-Spamd-Bar: ---- X-Rspamd-Pre-Result: action=no action; module=replies; Message is reply to one we originated X-Spamd-Result: default: False [-4.00 / 15.00]; REPLY(-4.00)[]; ASN(0.00)[asn:42000, ipnet:94.124.104.0/21, country:CZ] On 11/01/2024 09:54, Tomoaki AOKI wrote: > On Thu, 11 Jan 2024 08:36:24 +0100 > Alexander Leidinger wrote: [..] >> There's one possibility which nobody talked about yet... changing the >> default to noatime at install time in fstab / zfs set. >> >> I fully agree to not violate POLA by changing the default to noatime in >> any FS. I always set noatime everywhere on systems I take care about, no >> exceptions (any user visible mail is handled via maildir/IMAP, not >> mbox). I haven't made up my mind if it would be a good idea to change >> bsdinstall to set noatime (after asking the user about it, and later >> maybe offer the possibility to use relatime in case it gets >> implemented). I think it is at least worthwile to discuss this >> possibility (including what the default setting of bsdinstall should be >> for this option). [..] > A different aspect of view. > Nowadays, storages are quickly moving from HDD, aka spinning rust, to > SSD. > And SSD has a risk of sudden-death of wearing out. In ancient days, HDD > dies not suddenly and at least some cases admins could have time to > replace suspicious drives. But SSD dies basically suddenly. > > IMHO, this could be a valid reason to violate POLA. In limited use > cases, atime is useful, at the cost of amplified write accesses. > But in most cases, it doesn't have positive functionality nowadays. > > Anyway, we should have time to discuss whether it should be done or not > until upcoming stable/15 branch. stable/14 is already here and it > wouldn't be a good thing to MFC. Only *.0-RELEASE should be the point > to introduce this, unlike discussion about vi and ee on forums. The default values change over time as the needs of people, programs and hardware change. Many values for sysctls changed over time. If "noatime" can help people to not trash SSD / SD storage, I can imagine that bsdinstall will detect the storage type (simple guess can be made by diskinfo -v) and offer a "noatime" option that the user can check/uncheck. This option can be pre-selected for flash based storage. I don't care defaults for my-self, I can change them, but sane defaults should be beneficial for new users without much background knowledge. Kind regards Miroslav Lachman