From owner-freebsd-chat Sat Apr 11 18:46:51 1998 Return-Path: Received: (from majordom@localhost) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) id SAA21406 for freebsd-chat-outgoing; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:51 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG) Received: from jason03.u.washington.edu (root@jason03.u.washington.edu [140.142.77.10]) by hub.freebsd.org (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id SAA21324 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:40 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jcwells@u.washington.edu) Received: from saul7.u.washington.edu (root@saul7.u.washington.edu [140.142.82.2]) by jason03.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.05) with ESMTP id SAA23406 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:39 -0700 Received: from s8-37-26.student.washington.edu (S8-37-26.student.washington.edu [128.208.37.26]) by saul7.u.washington.edu (8.8.4+UW97.07/8.8.4+UW97.04) with SMTP id SAA29725 for ; Sat, 11 Apr 1998 18:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 17:45:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jason C. Wells" X-Sender: jason@s8-37-26.student.washington.edu Reply-To: "Jason C. Wells" To: FreeBSD-chat Subject: Rhapsody and FreeBSD Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-freebsd-chat@FreeBSD.ORG Precedence: bulk X-Loop: FreeBSD.org I recently posted a question to -questions that is more appropriately discussed here. I include the message that I refer to after my .sig for your reference. To have apple express _direct_ interest in FreeBSD is the BOON of a lifetime. I invite someone to tell me that a relationship with Apple would be bad for FreeBSD. (As a side note, mac users tend to be rebellious against MS as much as any free software user. To this end, the two groups are compatible. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.) Consider this possible (yet fictitious) headline. "Apple Computer Incorporates Free Software" Free software seems to be on the upswing. On the coattails of Netscape's recent announcement to distribute Navigator source code, Apple Computer announced today that it will use FreeBSD in the core of its operating system called "Rhapsody." Rhapsody is Apple Computer's answer to Windows NT. The addition of FreeBSD code.... But seriously, has anyone talked to this guy? This is one question to which I would like an answer. If Apple Computer used FreeBSD source that would be HUGE bragging rights. If Apple reverted its gain back to FreeBSD in the form of "G3 port" of FreeBSD, that would give FreeBSD another platform to run on. Good Gawd. I can't think of anything bad to say about this. Moreover, this one issue is of significant import to the entire free software cause. How big do I think this is? I think there isn't enough disc space in the world to say its BIIIIIIII................IIIIG. I feel that this could be the single most significant opportunity for FreeBSD to gain the "attention" that so much recent discussion indicates that the community is clammoring for. I want ORA to ':%s/Linux/FreeBSD/' every single line of text in their sources. If Apple dumps us for another BSD or ::gasp:: Linux then we can sit down and go back to talking about how nice it would be to have O'Reilly publish a FreeBSD book. Ho hum. The issue of resources always comes up. It seems the expenditure of GOOD WILL is the initial expense. We can do that right? If I don't hear that FreeBSD is considering this in the next couple of days, I think I will CC Jordan directly. I would hate for him (and all of us) to have missed this opportunity. (Poor Jordan. He is still the de facto president. :)) Have fun, | Stop warning me about the latest virus. Learn more... Jason Wells | http://ciac.llnl.gov/ciac/CIACHoaxes.html >From wsanchez@apple.com Sat Apr 4 23:46:09 1998 Date: Sat, 4 Apr 98 20:46:22 -0800 From: Wilfredo Sanchez To: questions@FreeBSD.ORG Subject: FreeBSD and Rhapsody Howdy- I'm having a hard time figuring out how one becomes a FreeBSD developer from your web site, so perhaps you guys can help me out. I work for Apple Computer, and as you may know, we're building this operating system with the code name Rhapsody. Rhapsody has a full BSD subsystem in it, and we'd like to get a relationship going with FreeBSD if the FreeBSD team is interested. Most of our BSD code comes from 4BSD Lite, which is a bit dated. Since last year, I've updated a lot of our user commands using NetBSD's sources. The decision to use NetBSD was pretty much arbitrary, although the fact that I can acces their code via CVS, and now can commit changes back in was a big influence. In any case, the BSD kernel guys at Apple usually use FreeBSD as a reference. This led to some small gotchas due to differences between NetBSD and FreeBSD, such as the fact that NetBSD lets you change mode bits on symlinks, which FreeBSD (I think) doesn't. So I had a little trouble with commands like cp, which tried to do this thing we don't support. I haven't gotten to the network and system commands and the libraries, where I think the biggest incompatibility problem lie, and the consensus is that I should look into using FreeBSD for those. There will be problems in any case, since we implement BSD over Mach, which makes commands like ps somewhat unique from other BSD's, but the goal is to minimize that. What I need to know is the degree that you would like to work together with Apple, if at all, in this regard. It's important that we be able to send our changes back upstream, since I believe that staying in sync with our source provider is more important than any competitive advantage that might buy us. UNIX is of little importance to Rhapsody from a market standpoint; there are plenty of good UNIX flavors that one can get for free; the value in Rhapsody lies elsewhere. But BSD *is* important for several reason, which I'm sure you appreciate. The key is we don't want to provide "a better UNIX", we just want to be compatible and play nice with other systems, and have all that functionality. To that end, we don't need to be unique, and cooperating with you guys would be much better. I tried a few times to get CVSup to work on Rhapsody, and I found it somewhat difficult, so I don't have that tool, although I could set up a FreeBSD box to do that. Currently I plan to use the Walnut Creek CDs, since that's more convenient. The question is how I would get changes back up to FreeBSD. CVS access would be ideal, and is our current arrangement with NetBSD. I understand that such access isn't easily granted, so I'm open to alternatives. I should mention that I'm really not all that interested in the merits of one BSD effort over the others. I'm a little surprised at the animosity between some developers toward the other groups, and don't really want to get involved in that debate, so don't tell me why the other guys stink, in case you are so inclined. I have no loyalties towards any one group. Ideally, we'd get the best of each, although I think we'll need a primary to keep things sane, and our kernel guys like FreeBSD. I believe that getting something set up that let us work together will be mutually beneficial. We can leverage the work you have done, and you can some paid developers to help with bugs. Thanks, -Fred --- Wilfredo Sanchez - wsanchez@apple.com - 408.974-5174 Apple Computer, Inc. - Rhapsody Core Operating Systems Group 2 Infinite Loop, Mail Stop 302-4K, Cupertino, CA 95014 To Unsubscribe: send mail to majordomo@FreeBSD.org with "unsubscribe freebsd-chat" in the body of the message