2qiI2xWqWEtbB9UmnzZijBHKTJlGJG0ZocZ7iAkxKvvTVwx2rMkX8rmtYjZFuPJAxDI24r L4QVo5PcA3dB1dQAF4lDpjOSD+dwN2ezshCGWf1O9YMOXno/cc9IRoaW+e3TLgkvpEf0l+ KD8mtMaxVkrb/uaNRV1sH3BRkZWdN3cDDXXWOj/+94gERHaref26gCnTZiIREw== Received: from [192.168.119.159] (p5dc83c4d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [93.200.60.77]) (using TLSv1.3 with cipher TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (128/128 bits) key-exchange X25519 server-signature RSA-PSS (4096 bits) server-digest SHA256) (Client did not present a certificate) (Authenticated sender: se/mail) by smtp.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4WzSvz0ZdtzRWf; Wed, 4 Sep 2024 16:42:38 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from se@FreeBSD.org) Message-ID: <40836902-cb68-45e0-b4ec-623c21aa47ba@FreeBSD.org> Date: Wed, 4 Sep 2024 18:42:37 +0200 List-Id: Technical discussions relating to FreeBSD List-Archive: https://lists.freebsd.org/archives/freebsd-hackers List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Sender: owner-freebsd-hackers@FreeBSD.org MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird From: Stefan Esser Subject: Re: Rust: kernel vs user-space To: Bob Bishop Cc: "freebsd-hackers@freebsd.org" References: <202409031532.483FW0If007252@critter.freebsd.dk> <7533543.20240904114624@yahoo.com> <0.2.0-final-1725440949.866-0xb4bb20@qmda.emu.st> <65ED39B7-099F-43FD-9F53-68286125A65E@FreeBSD.org> <0.2.0-final-1725443552.800-0x2fa4dc@qmda.emu.st> Content-Language: de-DE, en-US Autocrypt: addr=se@FreeBSD.org; keydata= xsBNBFVxiRIBCADOLNOZBsqlplHUQ3tG782FNtVT33rQli9EjNt2fhFERHIo4NxHlWBpHLnU b0s4L/eItx7au0i7Gegv01A9LUMwOnAc9EFAm4EW3Wmoa6MYrcP7xDClohg/Y69f7SNpEs3x YATBy+L6NzWZbJjZXD4vqPgZSDuMcLU7BEdJf0f+6h1BJPnGuwHpsSdnnMrZeIM8xQ8PPUVQ L0GZkVojHgNUngJH6e21qDrud0BkdiBcij0M3TCP4GQrJ/YMdurfc8mhueLpwGR2U1W8TYB7 4UY+NLw0McThOCLCxXflIeF/Y7jSB0zxzvb/H3LWkodUTkV57yX9IbUAGA5RKRg9zsUtABEB AAHNJ1N0ZWZhbiBFw59lciAoRnJlZUJTRCkgPHNlQGZyZWVic2Qub3JnPsLAlAQTAQoAPgIb AwULCQgHAwUVCgkICwUWAwIBAAIeAQIXgBYhBKNx6mWcC+zIK3FTE0frte9a/fVEBQJmvl9B BQkTLNNOAAoJEEfrte9a/fVEV1oH/jt+SjRqTHci6d1LiFDfbY0E2rfobZw5BhcQuCqxahS7 pcE1oLpUaoqWYPHslxhGTl7QSD2twMWcHLonZ1lgTJluMZqgTX9uvqEYDUtiH6G+IF7Qacat eUsAvwdycItPOr3p7WBt8U54GbnQdxpSUQ0OpD4twy7KAt/MPNLofVQSEea5DNQOH2dXILrf iRsNfFPsfTASOUXOTRyTYwm6Ys76LIdL9GA2iR5qw8G43FB02fiX76WQSjg+yKN9iP9racGg Pc8qkSPwHJr0s3OwJC4ndbCuSiaXddDbgOvdrqfSO0XCjo3ylyEBhmMVMpwkj8pLCKVGS73n Ncs6OujZXAzOwE0EVXGJEgEIALEj9qCXMZVucjpcd3QxM/TlUr98m5viEd1z4tCnPUyRWcIC EVtj2h5xMH+2iB0q1+KWhq+NsWtvScmEmfHnsr7dJ1K677OdpDhKVaJk61eeRulFY1R4yb6C 1MMxK+WgYB+vvpG0UeyR0M4uBewcPvRsq4yGUHFQKtLAbMdoPTSryJA+ElnmK1vdY+rPcHgi OIMBZM7ahsPXC0C9K4e5SP9clGyIoMpbfHXdx9q+Rp3zVtlbhyk3BS/xccu/+9pk9ICXL6GR js2sNnJ0wxdU1DsAlC59a5MnSruwiZFwRnkQhr3x6wk97Lg7sLS9jjTnCN7LGlVmSmpOEMy6 uq1AWfUAEQEAAcLAhgQYAQoAJgIbDBYhBKNx6mWcC+zIK3FTE0frte9a/fVEBQJmvl9BBQkT LNNOABQJEEfrte9a/fVECRBH67XvWv31RCrvCACY7fjahcGj/57peFu0oIb4X9X78H6mgrAZ D5HCCCb2vWdNtSDTYQoYnKP2Fz9RUG8ETT9a6CtymYqQc72/dzjJmakRTlbYhliKJDZXGAYU g34VirGXCjYgWH7l+0CupOtt55R/ASnrnXX9R/7PLO+akObn9Cz/bNBnIbYnTjLNs7GMMQL4 uNSyqIByQ3LVsVDaCq3408fYKC0dtlv2VNQQzcXXwOgecwpS2UeqMflrSA7UfPh15WgkpnrN AnKCtS66eU1w2kTCsVEjGQEgLI5pP1HMNRHjnHncAFSpOfs1EZn0MfhiyB+4T+lrccGI8EZu ay791Tx4QdDKkdZGaV9A In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Am 04.09.24 um 17:21 schrieb Bob Bishop: > Hi, > >> On 4 Sep 2024, at 15:37, Stefan Esser wrote: >> >> Am 04.09.24 um 11:52 schrieb Mark Delany: >>> On 04Sep24, David Chisnall apparently wrote: >>>> There are lots of control-plane things that I'd love to see >>>> written mostly in Lua, >>> It was remiss of me to not mention Lua given that it's already in the project. >>> Yet another language which could make life easier, more productive and more accessible in >>> user-land. >>> I'm not suggesting for an instant that any of these programs need rewriting, but one could >>> imagine that if commands like ifconfig, route, arp, ndp, ipfw (that is, programs which >>> take a lot of user input and do a lot of data manipulation but aren't super-critical on >>> the performance front) were written in a more accessible language, then it might attract >>> new developers without disenfranchising the core C developers. >> >> Here is ldconfig in LUA, written more than 2 years ago, for example: >> >> https://github.com/stesser/ldconfig/blob/main/ldconfig.lua > > And this is better than C because ...? > > (Asking for a friend :-) There had been a request for an architecture independent implementation that works on all FreeBSD releases and architectures. The LUA run-time has been available in FreeBSD for a long time, and it is a stable platform suitable for the implementation of commands that operate on text and might take advantage of features like associative storage. It is a "safe" implementation since memory is automatically managed, which reduces the risk of memory management errors (but we have to trust the LUA interpreter to be free of such issues, instead). I have not made this version available for review (but instead updated the C version to work with hints files of either byte order). But this code is much simpler than the C version it replaces, and it could easily be extended to, e.g., prepare hints files in chroot environments or in images prepared for an architecture with a (possibly) different byte order. And it is not only independent of the byte order and portable over all architectures, but also independent of the FreeBSD version. The LUA version is much shorter and easier to understand (if you know LUA), but one reason not to propose it for inclusion in FreeBSD is that there are many more developers that know how to work on the C version than on the LUA version. David and Mark have mentioned LUA, and there is little LUA code in the base system, currently (mostly the loader). I'd like to see LUA being used for more functionality that is not time critical, and since the LUA language has been very stable over time (other than many other interpreted languages), it is unlikely that a LUA script will not work on a later FreeBSD release (it only depends on a working flua and possibly some LUA include files). Anyway, this is off-topic for the discussion about rust, other than that LUA is a language that is not affected by many bugs that are typical for programs written in C. Best regards, STefan