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Date:      Wed, 28 Nov 2001 18:32:31 +1030
From:      Greg Lehey <grog@FreeBSD.org>
To:        Nate Williams <nate@yogotech.com>, Poul-Henning Kamp <phk@critter.freebsd.dk>, Wes Peters <wes@softweyr.com>, Richard Sharpe <sharpe@ns.aus.com>
Cc:        developers@FreeBSD.org, FreeBSD Hackers <hackers@FreeBSD.org>
Subject:   Re: FreeBSD performing worse than Linux?
Message-ID:  <20011128183231.J61580@monorchid.lemis.com>
In-Reply-To: <15364.39058.354066.940245@caddis.yogotech.com> <20011128182210.I61580@monorchid.lemis.com> <20011128015614.32e30d8b.wes@softweyr.com> <15364.38767.82340.347344@caddis.yogotech.com> <25429.1006933507@critter.freebsd.dk> <15364.38174.938500.946169@caddis.yogotech.com>
References:  <20011128153817.T61580@monorchid.lemis.com> <15364.38174.938500.946169@caddis.yogotech.com> <20011128015614.32e30d8b.wes@softweyr.com> <15364.38174.938500.946169@caddis.yogotech.com> <25429.1006933507@critter.freebsd.dk> <15364.38767.82340.347344@caddis.yogotech.com> <15364.38174.938500.946169@caddis.yogotech.com> <25429.1006933507@critter.freebsd.dk> <20011128153817.T61580@monorchid.lemis.com> <15364.38174.938500.946169@caddis.yogotech.com>

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I think I made a mistake by not opening this immediately.  Certainly I
haven't seen any particularly animosity here so far, and Richard can
defend himself, so: FreeBSD hackers, meet Richard Sharpe.  Richard,
meet the hackers.

As I said, Richard's a member of the Samba team.  He's also going to
be working on FreeBSD in the foreseeable future, so his intentions
here are completely honourable :-) He's sent me the report, but since
I didn't say I would send it to the entire development team, I'll wait
for his go-ahead (and the reply to a couple of questions) before
sending it on.

Greg

On Wednesday, 28 November 2001 at  0:41:18 -0700, Nate Williams wrote:
>> I've just been talking with a friend of mine from the Samba team.
>> He's about to change jobs, and a lot of his work in future will
>> involve FreeBSD.  He's just been doing some performance testing, and
>> while the numbers are pretty even (since he discovered soft updates
>> :-), he's noticing some significant performance differences,
>> particularly on the TCP/IP area.
>
> FWIW, I'm seeing this as well.  However, this appears to be a new
> occurance, as we were using a FreeBSD 3.X system for our reference test
> platform.  I recently updated it to FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE, and I'm getting
> nothing but complaints about broken connections, poor performance, and
> very inconsistent results.
>
> They are now considering installing Linux on this box with the hope that
> they can get consistent results.  (Unfortunately, FreeBSD 3.X is out
> because I convinced them that we needed to upgrade to 4.X due to
> security measures, so we can't go back.)
>
> Note, some of the performance issues were made better by disabling the
> TCP newreno implementation, but it's still poor and very inconsistent
> for hosts not on the local network, while the Linux box next to it gets
> much more consistent results.
>
> I know my lack of information isn't helping much, and that I've not done
> much to help debug the problem.  However, all my attempts to track down
> what is causing this from a high-level (w/out digging into the code
> itself and analyzing tcpdump output) have come up empty.

This is obviously something *somebody* (not me) should look in to.

On Wednesday, 28 November 2001 at  0:51:11 -0700, Nate Williams wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 November 2001 at  8:45:07 +0100, Poul-Henning Kamp wrote:
>> In message <15364.38174.938500.946169@caddis.yogotech.com>, Nate Williams writes:
>>> Note, some of the performance issues were made better by disabling the
>>> TCP newreno implementation, but it's still poor and very inconsistent
>>> for hosts not on the local network, while the Linux box next to it gets
>>> much more consistent results.
>>
>> For what it's worth I have disabled newreno at my customer sites as well
>> and felt and heard less "bogosity" since.
>
> It's actually pretty awful.  However, even with the fix I merged back
> into RELENG_4, the performance with/without newreno is still *much*
> worse (in terms of consistantly giving the same results) than the code
> in FreeBSD 3.x.
>
> The interesting thing is that the application that's getting the most
> press is one of our field technicians downloading a file over anonymous
> ftp by hand, so it's not like we're generating tons of traffic, or
> alot of parallel connections.
>
> The connections hang, abort, and those that complete have numbers that
> are *all* over the map.  However, when connected to a Linux box on the
> same network, none of these bad things occur. :(
>
> (And, we've verified the network is up by running ping in another
> window.)

On Wednesday, 28 November 2001 at 18:22:10 +1030, Greg Lehey wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 November 2001 at  1:56:14 -0700, Wes Peters wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Nov 2001 00:41:18 -0700
>> "Nate Williams" <nate@yogotech.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> FWIW, I'm seeing this as well.  However, this appears to be a new
>>> occurance, as we were using a FreeBSD 3.X system for our reference test
>>> platform.  I recently updated it to FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE, and I'm getting
>>> nothing but complaints about broken connections, poor performance, and
>>> very inconsistent results.
>>>
>>> They are now considering installing Linux on this box with the hope that
>>> they can get consistent results.  (Unfortunately, FreeBSD 3.X is out
>>> because I convinced them that we needed to upgrade to 4.X due to
>>> security measures, so we can't go back.)
>>
>> And they somehow think any variant of Linux is going to be better on
>> this point?  My recent experience with Linux would say otherwise,
>> but that was on an Intel Architecture Labs variant that is somewhat
>> out of date, too.
>
> Well, it ties in with Richard's experience.

On Wednesday, 28 November 2001 at  0:56:02 -0700, Nate Williams wrote:
>>> FWIW, I'm seeing this as well.  However, this appears to be a new
>>> occurance, as we were using a FreeBSD 3.X system for our reference test
>>> platform.  I recently updated it to FreeBSD 4.4-RELEASE, and I'm getting
>>> nothing but complaints about broken connections, poor performance, and
>>> very inconsistent results.
>>>
>>> They are now considering installing Linux on this box with the hope that
>>> they can get consistent results.  (Unfortunately, FreeBSD 3.X is out
>>> because I convinced them that we needed to upgrade to 4.X due to
>>> security measures, so we can't go back.)
>>
>> And they somehow think any variant of Linux is going to be better on
>> this point?
>
> More to the point, it *IS* better with Linux. :(
>
> (At least, comparing the latest FreeBSD with the 'latest' version of
> some release of Linux.  I'm not sure if it's Mandrake, or RedHat, or
> what.  I wasn't involved in that end of things.)
>
> I'm still trying to figure out if it's some simple configuration that's
> causing the problems, but the field trial folks are starting to get
> annoyed with my constant 'excuses' as to why we shouldn't just switch to
> Linux.

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