From owner-freebsd-arch@freebsd.org Fri Oct 5 20:57:15 2018 Return-Path: Delivered-To: freebsd-arch@mailman.ysv.freebsd.org Received: from mx1.freebsd.org (mx1.freebsd.org [IPv6:2610:1c1:1:606c::19:1]) by mailman.ysv.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 503C910B68E6; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 20:57:15 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from land.berklix.org (land.berklix.org [144.76.10.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "land.berklix.org", Issuer "land.berklix.org" (not verified)) by mx1.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D202B70C81; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 20:57:14 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from mart.js.berklix.net (p2E52C221.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [46.82.194.33]) (authenticated bits=0) by land.berklix.org (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id w95Kv2Xq047363 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 5 Oct 2018 20:57:07 GMT (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (fire.js.berklix.net [192.168.91.41]) by mart.js.berklix.net (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id w95KuuPN078893; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:56:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Received: from fire.js.berklix.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fire.js.berklix.net (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w95KucIo012200; Fri, 5 Oct 2018 22:56:50 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from jhs@berklix.com) Message-Id: <201810052056.w95KucIo012200@fire.js.berklix.net> To: Warner Losh cc: Brooks Davis , FreeBSD Net , freebsd-fcp@freebsd.org, FreeBSD-STABLE Mailing List , "freebsd-arch@freebsd.org" Subject: Re: FCP-0101: Deprecating most 10/100 Ethernet drivers From: "Julian H. Stacey" Organization: http://berklix.eu BSD Unix Linux Consultants, Munich Germany User-agent: EXMH on FreeBSD http://berklix.eu/free/ X-From: http://www.berklix.eu/~jhs/ In-reply-to: Your message "Fri, 05 Oct 2018 09:13:22 -0600." Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 22:56:38 +0200 X-BeenThere: freebsd-arch@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.27 Precedence: list List-Id: Discussion related to FreeBSD architecture List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 05 Oct 2018 20:57:15 -0000 Thanks for the reply warner, Warner Losh wrote: > On Fri, Oct 5, 2018 at 8:46 AM Julian H. Stacey wrote: > > > > >>> Please direct replies to freebsd-arch <<< > > > > > > FCP-01010 (https://github.com/freebsd/fcp/blob/master/fcp-0101.md) > > > outlines a plan to deprecate most 10/100 Ethernet drivers in FreeBSD 12 > > > and remove them in FreeBSD 13 to reduce the burden of maintaining and > > > improving the network stack. We have discussed this within the > > > core team and intend to move forward as proposed. We are solictiting > > > feedback on the list of drivers to be excepted from removal. > > > > > > The current list of drivers slated for REMOVAL is: > > > > > > ae, bfe, bm, cs, dme, ed, ep, ex, fe, pcn, rl, sf, smc, sn, > > > ste, tl, tx, txp, vx, wb, xe > > > > I have many hosts using ed & rl, several using ep, & at least one > > using xe or ex. That's just from memory, maybe other drivers in peril. > > > > Later in the thread rl was removed from the list. That's a partial relief. > What systems are you running ed, ex and/or xe on? So far I've heard no > reports of people using the latter two in about a decade. I can look more later, but for a quick partial reply: I keep an incomplete ad hoc occasionaly/rarely updated list of logs, useful for odd questions such as this, so I can run quick checks cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep ed0: * */* | grep port # ... vi dual film flip lapn loft slim wind cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ed0: * */* dual film flip lapl loft park rain snow wall wind cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep xe0: * */* lapd lapo cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep xe0: * */* nothing cd ~/tech/log/dmesg ; grep ex0: * */* nothing cd ~/tech/log/ifconfig ; grep ex0: * */* nothing Hosts above are custom PCs no model numbers, but these are standard laptops: xe: lapd: Digital HiNote Ultra2000 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/digital/ ed: lapl: Toshiba Libretto 70CT http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/toshiba/libretto/ ed: lapn: Dell Latitude XPi P133ST http://berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/dell_latitude_xpi_p133st xe: lapo: Novatech (MiTAC) 8355 http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/hardware/laptops/novatech-8355/ ( PS ed0 is also used by Hewlett Packard Network ScanJet 5 a multi sheet feeder with FreeBSD built inside, however that's stuck on a seriously old release, still a great device though - http://berklix.com/scanjet/ ) PS My master kernel config from pre 4.11 to current: http://www.berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/fixes/FreeBSD/src/jhs/sys/amd64/conf/HOLZ So quick summary: ex: I dont seem to use ed: I use on many of my hosts, not just those above, & I have some spare to stick in to any PCI or ISA box I work on if needed. ed & xe I also have on pcmcia & cardbus, so they move around between laptops. > Unless the functionality of drivers is sub-sumed in to other drivers, > > stripping all those drivers would motivate some to never upgrade > > again, or dump FreeBSD for a more conservative BSD, or fork FreeBSD etc. > > > > You could also create a port/pkg for them and assume the burden of > maintenance yourself. Didn't know drivers could be farmed out to ports/, sounds like a recipe for breakage sooner or later. > > Stripping dead code helps developers play easier, but stripping > > live code is offensive. Some who periodicaly propose code demolitions > > forget that many users of FreeBSD don't subscribe lists, except > > maybe announce, as too busy, maintaining FreeBSD on networks ... > > until their nets don't work. > > > > I think in this case there will be plenty of warning. They will upgrade to > 12, one assumes, and see the deprecation message in their new kernel logs. > There's going to be about a 6 month window between when this is announced > and when it happens to collect evidence that removal is unwarranted, to > show they are still in use by enough people to justify their on-going (yes > non-zero) cost to keep in the tree. There's over 2 years before they will > be removed from a released version: also plenty of time to build a case > that they are in use and/or upgrade to different, supported NICs. If you > look at the rest of the thread, you'll see several people have made > compelling cases and/or provided evidence of continued use into the future > to keep the drivers in the tree. Evidence will save them, but harsh words > will not. > > I think expecting people to blindly maintain code on the off chance someone > is still using is offensive as well. We must weigh the costs of continuing > with the benefits those cost provide. We don't have good sources of data > for what's still in use and what's not, so we have to rely on these > periodic calls for data to ensure we aren't wasting our time on hardware > that's no longer used. > > Warner Yes, needs careful balance. Cheers, Julian -- Julian Stacey, Computer Consultant, Systems Engineer, BSD Linux Unix, Munich Brexit: 3,700,000 stolen votes in 1st referendum inc. 700,000 from Brits in EU Campaign lies & criminal funding, economy & pound down: New referendum needed. http://exitbrexit.uk