From owner-freebsd-current@FreeBSD.ORG Tue May 23 17:15:59 2006 Return-Path: X-Original-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Delivered-To: freebsd-current@freebsd.org Received: from mx1.FreeBSD.org (mx1.freebsd.org [216.136.204.125]) by hub.freebsd.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06FF616A742; Tue, 23 May 2006 17:15:59 +0000 (UTC) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (gate.funkthat.com [69.17.45.168]) by mx1.FreeBSD.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840D643D66; Tue, 23 May 2006 17:15:50 +0000 (GMT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: from hydrogen.funkthat.com (afsqwr787o01uhg2@localhost.funkthat.com [127.0.0.1]) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.4/8.13.3) with ESMTP id k4NHFif2048777; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:15:44 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg@hydrogen.funkthat.com) Received: (from jmg@localhost) by hydrogen.funkthat.com (8.13.4/8.13.3/Submit) id k4NHFfnJ048776; Tue, 23 May 2006 10:15:41 -0700 (PDT) (envelope-from jmg) Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 10:15:40 -0700 From: John-Mark Gurney To: Scott Long Message-ID: <20060523171540.GS770@funkthat.com> Mail-Followup-To: Scott Long , Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-multimedia@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger , freebsd-current@freebsd.org References: <20060520141209.A2285@free.home.local> <86fyj1kju5.fsf@xps.des.no> <20060523171238.6392afdb@Magellan.Leidinger.net> <867j4clqaj.fsf@xps.des.no> <4473336F.1030900@samsco.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <4473336F.1030900@samsco.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Operating-System: FreeBSD 5.4-RELEASE-p6 i386 X-PGP-Fingerprint: B7 EC EF F8 AE ED A7 31 96 7A 22 B3 D8 56 36 F4 X-Files: The truth is out there X-URL: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/ X-Resume: http://resnet.uoregon.edu/~gurney_j/resume.html Cc: freebsd-multimedia@freebsd.org, Dag-Erling =?iso-8859-1?Q?Sm=F8rgrav?= , freebsd-current@freebsd.org, Alexander Leidinger Subject: Re: Call for testing: emu10kx driver for Creative sound cards X-BeenThere: freebsd-current@freebsd.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: John-Mark Gurney List-Id: Discussions about the use of FreeBSD-current List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 23 May 2006 17:16:03 -0000 Scott Long wrote this message on Tue, May 23, 2006 at 10:08 -0600: > Dag-Erling Smørgrav wrote: > >Alexander Leidinger writes: > > > >>Quoting des@des.no (Dag-Erling Smørgrav) (Tue, 23 May 2006 14:26:58 > >>+0200): > >> > >>>Yuriy Tsibizov writes: > >>> > >>>>2. Complete mixer support. Some controls that can't fit into OSS > >>>>mixer are available as sysctl under debug.emu10kxX. > >>> > >>>That is not the correct place for it. Please use the device's sysctl > >>>context (obtained with device_get_sysctl_ctx()) > >> > >>This was based upon a suggestion by me. We want to get rid of most > >>sound related syscalls (at least those which belong into the realm of > >>the user, and not into the realm of the administrator). Until we have > >>an application and an interface, we have to life with the sysctls, but > >>to let the users know that this is not an interface but a temporary > >>workaround, it's put into the debug MIB. I hope we will not ship > >>7.0-RELEASE with any such sysctl (any help appreciated). > > > > > >Regardless, device-specific sysctl knobs belong in the individual > >device's sysctl context, which automatically places them in the > >correct location in the dev tree and automatically destroys them when > >the device is destroyed. Please do not create further precedent for > >breaking this rule, no matter how good your intentions. > > > >DES > > The problem is that Alexander wants these sysctls to only be temporary. > Recall that big thread from a month or two ago about treating sysctls > as an API, and how there was heavy disagreement over how to define > "stable" sysctls that apps could depend on? If a temporary set of > sysctls get put under the dev tree, then it risks becoming permanent, > which is not what Alexander wants. So, either we need to decide what > parts of the sysctl to define as stable, like I asked for in the > previous thread, or we need to pretend that it's not a problem that we > should address, and let you and Alexander continue to argue over the > 'correct place'. Having touched debug a year or two back (witness renaming).. even sysctl's in the debug tree are standard.. so simply putting them in debug doesn't mean people will understand that they may go away in the future... debug does not imply temporary or stable... heck, some would argue the debug.sizeof is a VERY stable part of the api... -- John-Mark Gurney Voice: +1 415 225 5579 "All that I will do, has been done, All that I have, has not."